What do you do when your host breaks halacha?

DrMom

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 12:51 am

amother OP wrote:

Yes those things happen in that house too!
It's my in-laws and no it's not the norm in our circles.

You should have said that in the first place!

You must make all efforts to maintain a positive relationship with your in-laws. Ask your rav for guidance, and don't look for trouble.

amother

Firethorn

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 3:32 am

amother Forestgreen wrote:

Regarding the light- for either the child or a non Jew, in certain situations there is no one who will be mattir getting hanaa from it if it wasn’t allowed, and there are times there is no one who will allow it. This actually is something that many people aren’t familiar with. It is worth learning about this.

On the other hand, a child below the age of understanding may perform a melacha derabanan such as turning off a light (or perhaps even a deoraysa, such as turning it on) if they are not specifically directed to do so and believe they are doing it for their own good/for fun. See the Piskei Teshuvos.

Chickensoupprof

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 4:25 am

I know of lots of women who cover their hair only in shul, and kiddush with a hat. I'm currently in the UK (but in Amsterdam I see this also really often) and I happened to be in a united synagogue shul that is less chareidi and I was the only one with a sheitel. And I didn't lecture these women about how big a mitzvah is to wear a sheitel or full covering at all times etc. It makes you really unlikeable. Once we heard that someone from Israel held that you can mix fleishig and milchic cutlery in the dishwasher we were surprised my husband asked his rabbi and he said this is a lenient opinion amongst sefardi rabbi's. Does not make it assur d'oraisa.

The same is true with lots of things, I won't find it nice if someone comes to my house on Pesach and say I don't keep Pesach because I eat gebrokts. Or that some chassidishe woman tells me I don't really cover my hair because I don't double cover and/or shave.

amother

Apple

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 5:31 am

Your MIL put cheese sandwiches in the fleishig oven because she probably only left her fleishig oven on over Shabbat/Yom Tov and wanted to make melted cheese sandwiches on Yom Tov. The word sandwich indicates the cheese was covered with a slice of bread. Many hold even if it were not covered this is allowed. You also were deceptive in saying her hair was uncovered in front of your DH and not telling us right away that your DH is her own son. You are very wrong in your holier than others attitude because these people are your husband's parents. They deserve more respect than you gave them.

DVOM

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 6:14 am

amother OP wrote:

Yes those things happen in that house too!
It's my in-laws and no it's not the norm in our circles.

Well, this changes things significantly.

Sounds like this might be more about resenting your in laws than clear cut halachical concerns.

What does your husband think/feel about his parents' level of observance? I can't imagine that his own mom's hair or bare ankles makes him all that uncomfortable.

amother

Cerulean

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 8:01 am

My husbands family is modern orthodox, we are Lakewood yeshivish
1. Mother in law doesn’t cover her hair at all. Neither do his married sisters. Yes, he is still allowed to see them!
2. You can burn out an oven from fleishigs to milchigs and vice versa and you can use it same day. Or wait 24 hours in between and the oven becomes parve. Hello, not everyone has space for 2 ovens!! Especially in Brooklyn!
3. Yikes, my 3 year old is sometimes our “Shabbos [gentile]” in a pinch but we are putting a stop to that.

Your situation doesn’t sound as horrifying as you made it out to be!

amother

Firebrick

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 8:21 am

amother Wallflower wrote:

Ironic because I grew up in a very mixed OOT community. And even though I hung out at my friend's houses all the time, at various Frumkeit levels and various hashkafos, I never ate or slept there and no one other than a couple friends that were close family friends would eat or sleep by me. In school, no one was allowed to bring in homemade food for this same reason. The attitude we grew up with was always "You never know what other families know so you just don't trust anyone."
You don't have to agree, but I do feel that the opposite is true. When we can be ok with other people not trusting our standards and not see it as a personal offense, then we can live together as a community.

The other poster said she wouldn’t even hang out with them - she’d just stay in her room.

I’ve been to places where I didn’t eat the food but I spent time with the relatives or family friends

amother

Goldenrod

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 7:34 am

You think she’s breaking Halacha , because you are not knowledgeable enough in Halachos of BASER VECHALAV. It is actually one hundred percent mutur (lechatchila) to make a cheese sandwich in a fleishig oven (providing the rack of oven is clean or foil is put over the rack ). Ask ANY Rav that knows the Halachas of בשר וחלב and they will tell you that you are wrong . There is nothing halachically wrong with it. Bread and cheese are both considered “dry foods” in Halacha . Dry foods can not absorb or give off any flavor from the oven and therefore it is 1,0000% mutur. The only thing that was done that was actually אסור was your judgment of her. Perhaps before judging others, consider the fact that you may be uninformed and ask a Rav before deciding that something is אסור when in fact it is actually 1000% מותר.

amother

Goldenrod

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 7:37 am

amother Indigo wrote:

Talk to a Rabbi. When it's parents or in-laws, you'll likely find that all of the leniencies that your rabbi would not normally recommend come into play. Because this is not kashrus or tnzius in a vacuum.

It’s not a leniency it’s 1000% mutur and one thousand percent kosher. Not covering your hair in front of your son is a chumra, nothing was done wrong besides OPs judgements.

amother

Goldenrod

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 7:57 am

small bean wrote:

Yup. In practice it almost never happens because either we are eating dairy or meat and we don't use the oven for everything. I just have to have the oven preheated...

Let’s clarify the actual Halacha and understand the reasoning behind it so things don’t get taken out of context. Anything dairy that is dry (according to Halacha) maybe cooked in a fleishig oven if the rack is clean. Dry foods do not absorb or give off any flavor. However dairy foods cooked in a sauce can not be put in a fleishig oven uncovered because the sauce gives off steam that gets absorbed and loosens flavoring from oven that can get absorbed into the food. Therefore anything that is cooked in a sauce would have to be double covered. However what you might believe is considered food that is not dry , lehalacha maybe considered dry. For example pizza has sauce, so you may believe it needs to be covered but lehalacha it is considered dry and can be cooked uncovered. The pizza is not cooking in a sauce that can give off steam . Lasagna does cook in a sauce that would give off steam and would therefore need to be covered. The exact same is true for cooking fleishig in a milchigs oven oven. I can’t get into all the technicalities of what’s considered dry and please don't decide to Paskun based off my explanation here. Ask a Rav or learn the halachos it’s not complicated you just have to understand the concept and mechanics of what foods give off steam and absorb …..

amother

Goldenrod

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 8:09 am

amother Molasses wrote:

Op makes it sound like she was surprised. Like her and the hostess live in the same community and the hostess's behavior is unusual.

It's not like she's coming on here complaining that the hostess wasn't serving yoshon, or even cholov Yisrael. Or wasn't wearing socks.

Yes, the three things she brought up are discussions in halacha, and there might be good arguments for both sides. But there is such a thing as community norms and standards of halacha.

Sorry you’re uninformed. Cooking a cheese sandwich in a fleishig oven is 1000% מותר. From a Halacha standpoint not eating yoshon could be worse of a problem. There is zero halachic issue with cooking a cheese sandwich in a fleishig oven. Yoshon is a mitzvah deiorisa and only reason some aren’t makpid on it, is because they say it doesn’t apply outside of Eretz Yisroel (in Gauls). Yoshon is a machlokes if it applies nowadays . Cooking a cheese sandwich in a clean fleishig oven is not a machlukes it’s one hundred percent mutter. If the “community standards” are based on ignorance she should be upset that she’s ignorant. There are no arguments about cooking a cheese sandwich in a clean fleishig oven. Anyone who knows Halacha knows it’s fine. The only ones arguing, are the ones that are ignorant in the Halacha. If it’s OPs “community standard” to be uneducated that’s OPs issue, not her in laws .

amother

Goldenrod

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 8:18 am

the world's best mom wrote:

I wouldn't eat there again. It does sound like a kashrus problem, and I have only one oven so I've asked about baking milchigs in the fleishig oven. We double cover the milchigs and put a piece of foil underneath it. That's halacha for me. If someone else holds that they can bake uncovered milchigs in their fleishig oven, that may be okay for them but not for me.

And I have never heard of a minhag that allows women to uncover their hair in front of unrelated men. An opinion like that might exist, but that doesn't mean everyone has to view it as okay. It's certainly not the standard opinion.

You either asked someone not knowledgeable enough in the Halacha or didn’t understand. Dry dairy if rack is clean can go uncovered in fleishig oven. It’s not that ppl hold differently. That’s Halacha so you either didn’t specify liquid vs solid or misunderstood something. You don’t have to double cover dry dairy food in fleishig oven