What do you do when your host breaks halacha?

amother

Topaz

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 6:22 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Could you elaborate a bit more please. My common sense says it makes no difference if you are at home or outside.

In the Gemara, it discusses different levels of hair covering, such as, uncovered, covered only with a kaltah and fully covered. Which one is appropriate, depends on where the woman is: inside the house, in a courtyard, in an alleyway with very few people, in complete public. In the alleyway with very few people, who are presumably not her family, incomplete covering is enough. In the house technically no covering is required. Maybe someone can give the exact source, I don't have time now.

A friend of mine was told by her rav that inside her own house, the house is her head covering, so to say. No obligation to cover, even if there are male guests.
I don't hold that way because most women where I live cover when there are any guests in the house. But there are orthodox rabbanim who allow this.

amother

Topaz

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 6:28 am

Another question, how does the OP know that the oven was fleishig?
Most people I know don't have labels on their ovens at home. We have two, one on top of the other, one milchig, one fleishig, but to a guest they would look the same. Only family members know which is which. Sometimes, we kasher the milchig oven to be parve.

amother

Peru

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 6:28 am

All of those examples are not clear cut assur, so I wouldn't even worry. (My 4 year told lights on and off the whole shabbos and there is not much I can do about it but wait for him to outgrow it!)

I know someone went away for shabbos once and the hostess opened and served a package of treif deli meat! Someone else I know went was hosted for Friday night and the hostess took a strainer and put it on her soup tureen then poured the pot of soup through the strainer to separate the liquid from the vegetables.

amother

Melon

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 6:29 am

DrMom wrote:

The uncoveted cheese sandwich in a fleishig oven is the only one that would concern me. There are halachic opinions that support the other 2 practices.

Also the kashrut issue is the only one that directly impacts me.

Depends on a lot of factors about the oven it's not so black and white, I have one oven so I asked my Rav, many people are way too strict.

What does it mean a fleishigs oven? When was it last used for fleishigs? Was the fleishigs wet or dry? Covered or uncovered?

@op can we stop Judging people please

watergirl

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 6:36 am

amother OP wrote:

Making cheese sandwiches in the fleishig oven.
Open uncovered.
Also having the 4 year old turn on and off the lights on shabos.
Walking around with hair uncovered in front of dh.

Not everyone has the luxury of having two ovens. Those of us with only one oven actually have to know halacha. I called up the star k to ask for a refresher on this matter not too long ago because even though aside from six years when I had two ovens and the rest of my frum life I had only one, it’s important to relearn from time to time.

Depending on various different circumstances such as when the last time oven was used for uncovered, liquidy meat, it could be acceptable to use the oven to melted cheese sandwich also uncovered. There are a lot of moving pieces and it’s not black and white.

But if you’re not comfortable with the way that your host manages her kitchen, by all means, say, thank you for her hospitality and go home.

From the examples that you gave, though, it seems more like you were the one who could use a refresher course and also learn that not everyone holds the way you do on these matters. The hair and lights are matters in which as others said here before me, some people hold is acceptable.

heidi

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 7:00 am

There is a daeh that if your oven is used for meat with no spillage it can immediately be used for dairy as long as it is absolutely clean.
Don't just say no. Check.
There are opinions that covering the hair in one's own home is not necessary no matter who is there bcz. it is obvious that the woman is the baalat habayit and not available to other men.
4 year olds turn on lights on shabbat all the time.
I'm not a huge dan l'kaf zchut person but here it sounds like you could practise some

amother

Lightgray

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 7:24 am

While someone can make a case for doing certain. Things on their own and in their own home op is talking about being hosted at someone’s home in which the kashrut etc they are serving you is affected.
If you are concerned for your own sake that does not mean judging it means protecting your standards. No need to make assumptions either way. Go home. Gracefully tactfully and diplomatically.

watergirl

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 7:43 am

amother Lightgray wrote:

Keep in mind, though, as previously stated, what she considers to be her standards to be are very likely not being violated at all.

Again, you can function with one oven. If you have always had two ovens, when you have no idea how to keep a kosher kitchen with only one. You never had to learn the halachas. One can’t have a standard to have two ovens in someone else’s house. That’s not a standard, It’s ignorance of halacha.

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 8:16 am

The fleishig oven might only be used for covered fleishigs, we really don't know the circumstances. But in general, if you can't really trust someone's kashrus because you're questioning a lot of their observance in general you should either speak to a rav to find out what to do or not eat there. We can excuse itemized lists but it doesn't take care of the trust issue.

(And we're only guessing about the oven situation.)

octopus

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 8:30 am

It doesn't sound like this host is up to your standards. Like everyone else said, there is room to be meikil in all of these situations, but I certainly wouldn't be comfortable at all with the kashrus or the mom hair uncovered. So don't eat there next time.

amother

Wallflower

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 8:35 am

amother Moonstone wrote:

How did you end up a guest at someone with such different standards than you?

That's my question. OP it's your responsibility to make sure you are guests at families that you feel comfortable with. I wouldn't even be eating at a family with such different standards let alone sleeping by them.

the world's best mom

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 8:42 am

I wouldn't eat there again. It does sound like a kashrus problem, and I have only one oven so I've asked about baking milchigs in the fleishig oven. We double cover the milchigs and put a piece of foil underneath it. That's halacha for me. If someone else holds that they can bake uncovered milchigs in their fleishig oven, that may be okay for them but not for me.

And I have never heard of a minhag that allows women to uncover their hair in front of unrelated men. An opinion like that might exist, but that doesn't mean everyone has to view it as okay. It's certainly not the standard opinion.

Ema of 5

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 8:42 am

amother Wallflower wrote:

Maybe OP went away for succos and couldn’t sleep at her host’s house, so this is where she is sleeping? Do you never go away for a somcha and not know who will be hosting you? There are circumstances under which you don’t get to choose your host.

Donuts

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 8:46 am

Don’t judge other people who are probably doing their best to follow the Torah. If you don’t like it you don’t need to go. But don’t say anything to make them feel uncomfortable and judged. I’m sure it’s not okay to hurt someone’s feelings in order to be strict with halacha when what the person is doing isn’t even assur. We use one oven for both dairy and meat separately because our big rav in Lakewood says it’s okay. He’s on beis din. We also use one dishwasher for both separately with his okay. Not everything is the way you were taught. We also have a friend that’s a big rabbi and part of the vaad of star k. He told us that we can use one oven as well and that he would eat all our food without asking any questions even though in his home he uses two ovens. Following all the halachos are not easy for everyone. But we do our best to do the minimum of the things we struggle with. Yes I would gladly use two evens if we can afford it. And covering the hair is very hard for some people. Little boys at four years old is very normal to be turning on lights. They are still babies. We are all trying our best here.

Java

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 8:46 am

If a meat oven is clean, one may bake a dry, uncovered (or covered) dairy item in it.9 It is not necessary to first kasher the oven or wait 24 hours. If one wants to bake a dry, uncovered dairy item immediately after cooking meat, one should first wait for the oven (which must be clean) to cool down.
https://www.star-k.org/article.....reve/

amother

Wallflower

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 8:51 am

Ema of 5 wrote:

I guess we're outliers in that we wouldn't stay by someone unless we're sure of their standards and if we would it would literally only be to sleep and be in our room, never to eat or hang out with.

WhatFor

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 8:53 am

Ema of 5 wrote:

If she's only sleeping there, then kal vachomer this shouldn't be an issue for her.