S/O Bathroom Usage - So disappointed in our teachers

amother

Mayflower

Fri, Oct 27 2023, 8:48 am

amother Diamond wrote:

Thank you!!
And they don't use them because they don't need them.
5 min break, 1 hr 20 min class
25 min break, 1 hr 20 min class
5 min break

I don't know if you teach limudei kodesh. I would be curious about what halachah/psak allows a kid who realizes they need to use the bathroom twenty minutes before class is over to hold it and go at break/lunch and continue to learn chumash in the meantime. And I genuinely am curious, if there is a psak for schools about this.

amother

Diamond

Fri, Oct 27 2023, 9:00 am

amother Mayflower wrote:

I don't know and I teach English.
That's interesting. I wonder.

Also, I wonder about the (from the Gemara) sakana of not using the bathroom- is it the same for men and women?

I only know men who are into sakana and go the bathroom ASAP, not women.

amother

Birch

Fri, Oct 27 2023, 9:19 am

Im going to point out 2 other pieces that no one is actually talking about.

1) the conversation about kids needing their recess to eat, to run around. Having them use half of a precious 15 minute recess waiting on a bathroom line is unfair.
Im talking about most of the schools that I know 3-8th grade. Where there's no separate bathroom time and there are lines and a mad rush for the bathrooms.

2) even during recess, many schools have rules about how many kids were allowed inside the building or out of the gym at a time.
I remember multiple times dancing by the exit of the playground but I had to wait because "there were already 5 girls out of the playground" or something. Safety

amother

Opal

Fri, Oct 27 2023, 9:19 am

I have an embarrassing story
When I was in first grade the teacher wouldn’t let anyone go to the bathroom outside of set times
This was in public school
I wanted my mom to talk the teacher
My mom said so just make in your pants, that will teach her, but she didn’t really mean it
I took my mom quite literally (I wasn’t so smart)
Next time the teacher said no, I peed in my pants. I could have held it, but I did as mom said.
My mom was humiliated, but in my young mind I taught that teacher a lesson
1st grade?????

amother

Fri, Oct 27 2023, 10:05 am

amother Diamond wrote:

I'm sorry. I know you're upset and had bad experiences, but I'm not a cruel teacher.
I'm the teacher that is requested.

You aren’t cruel but the policy
is cruel. 4 passes a month makes it difficult for a child to assess if they need the bathroom and reinforces them to not listen to their bodies messages.
It can also be shameful for a student to relinquish a pass for the right to use the bathroom.

From a chinuch point of view it’s wrong.

Even though you don’t understand that,maybe you can at least have the rachmanus to
change.

Being a teacher comes with a responsibility.
Let’s not let our students down.

amother

Fri, Oct 27 2023, 10:07 am

amother Firebrick wrote:

You are not cruel. Your policy is cruel.

For the girls who hold it in so they don't waste a precious pass.
For those who have anxiety.
For the ones who waited on line at recess but didn't have a turn.
For those who avoid drinking in school.
For the ones whose GI issues are not yet diagnosed.
For the girl still mortified that anyone might discover her period.
For those who are too scared to ask you if you might say no.
For the ones who are too shy to ask.

Why not turn it around, and deal with the ones who leave too often? Make rules for the ones abusing the privilege? And give the majority who deserve to trust that when their body signals, even between breaks, that they need to go, that they can simply without fuss take care of things and go back to their seat.

This.
Diamond, read this a few times and take it to heart.
I am a teacher as well. Please don’t be stubborn and have your students best interest in mind.

BrisketBoss

Fri, Oct 27 2023, 10:09 am

notshanarishona wrote:

Attitudes like this are why so many teachers are leaving. Do you think we don’t know that some parts of school work aren’t fun? Do you think we don’t spend hours and hours (virtually unpaid) to try and make lessons more interactive and enjoyable? Whatever teachers do, students are still going to be more interested in shmoozing with their friends than doing a writing assignment or math worksheet. That’s life. We don’t choose the curriculum, it’s not based on what the kids have interest in. It’s planned to make them productive adults and give them the skills to have a higher education.
Almost none of my college work was enjoyable. Why did I do it? Because I had a higher goal in mind. As parents , your job is to encourage your kids to do things that are right, not just that are interesting.
And maybe try teaching for a year and then come back and respond about how few discipline issues you have and how all the kids are glued to their seats … it’s not easy.

Coercive education was always a terrible idea. That's great that you were motivated in college. If a student is having a problem, help them. Not letting them go to the bathroom won't solve their problem. I used to doodle instead of paying attention in math class because I was implicitly taught from an early age that math was scary and I was bad at it, so I ducked out the first time I felt lost. Would monitoring me to make sure I wasn't doing anything distracting have been helpful? No. Changing me to a different class helped.

Kids who grow up with more autonomous education with their parents involved, sometimes skip things that do not seem relevant to the student because why fight about it? And then when it does become relevant one day, e.g. to take a college entrance exam, they learn quickly because they have the skills and motivation.

Somehow we think we need artificial bribes and threats to get children to do what we want. They are capable of learning and being successful without that.

amother

Fri, Oct 27 2023, 10:11 am

amother Diamond wrote:

Does she use the bathroom at lunch and recess?
That should be your first step to work on.

Because if she DOES use the bathroom at the scheduled breaks, and is still experiencing this, I'd be very concerned physically about her needing the bathroom that much more. 4 bathroom passes is 1 per week on average.

I'd also be worried about her physically and emotionally if she has so much anxiety about using the bathroom and actually has had 3 accidents three days in a row.

I think you should speak to her pediatrician.
Obviously you can get a doctor's note or ask the teacher for an exception for your daughter, but as a teacher I know that what is happening to her isn't developmentally appropriate, and I'd want to rule out physical and emotional causes.

Hatzlacha rabba.

Diamond, you’re missing the boat with this response.
Empathy is so crucial for teaching. The first thing the mother should do is talk to the teacher. You as a teacher can be creating this anxiety with your policies.
Don’t throw it back on the mother ( although, yes the mom should rule out a physical issue). As a teacher your priority is to make this as easy and seamless for your students. You need to be empathic and revamp your polices even if you have been doing it for decades.

Many of us teachers are doing the wrong thing for decades. Doing if for a long time doesn’t make it the right thing to do.

amother

Fri, Oct 27 2023, 10:15 am

amother Seablue wrote:

She says that most kids don't even use them. Did you miss that line?

They aren’t using them because it’s embarrassing and uncomfortable to use them. The question isn’t how many kids are using them, it’s how many kids are uncomfortable physically and emotionally in her class due to the policy. And that she won’t know unfortunately, until we have it posted on imamother in 20 years from now a students angst.

amother

Fri, Oct 27 2023, 10:19 am

amother Birch wrote:

This . It’s a challenge for kids to take care of themselves in school due to many logistics. Let’s make this one piece easy for them.
Thousands of teachers have successful and functional classrooms despite leaving the bathroom autonomy to their students. Perhaps it behooves us teachers to reach out to a teacher who balances their students needs and the classroom to learn tips how to successfully do both.