Le chaim. Vort. Tenayim. Irusin ?! Why so many

amother

Burgundy

Thu, Dec 14 2023, 7:45 am

Chayalle wrote:

No one I know does tenayim (even my Chassidish relatives don't.)

ETA I mean tenayim at engagement. Of course, it's done right before the Chuppah.

I had a Tenoiim at my engagement not too long ago. Same with many people I know.

We actually call the event a Tenoim and not an engagement because that's what it is.

Chayalle

Thu, Dec 14 2023, 8:00 am

Traveller247 wrote:

We signed tenoyim at my engagement and did so by all my siblings, cousins, aunts etc.
We're viznitz but all my chassidish relatives do that (mix of chasiduses).
I've actually never heard of doing it at the wedding!

Interesting because my relative who told me they no longer do an actual tenayim (but they still call it the tenayim) is Viznitz. (Viznitz EY. Maybe different there.)

cnc

Thu, Dec 14 2023, 8:15 am

kenz wrote:

My understanding is that if you do it at the chasunah, the kesubah is the tena’im and you don’t need another document. You only need a shtar tena’im when it’s taking place in advance. I never knew there are people who don’t break a plate at the chasunah, before badeken.

The tenaim is a document that gets signed during the kabalas panim(for those that do it ant the wedding) and has no relevance to the kesubah.

amother

Rainbow

Thu, Dec 14 2023, 8:41 am

kenz wrote:

No, people do a tenayim when they break the plate and also have the kesubah. It's separate even when done at the chasunah. Although apparently some don't have the cusrom of tenayim at all as HY pointed out.

Pandabeer

Thu, Dec 14 2023, 9:56 am

Chassidisch here:
Lchaim is when couple gets engaged, besides parents, sometimes grandparents and siblings depends on the dynamics, usually no one knows so it's to make it official and be able to let people know
Sometimes family, friends close neighbour's stop by to with the new couple Mazel tov, it's very unofficial some cake and liquor on table to with l'chaim

Lately people do another l'chaim at night so people who work can come...really don't understand the idea behind it as is forces,some people to have to travel twice....

Some families to the l'chaim/vort together so that's already more prepared and more people come

Vort is the official engagement party. We sign an agreement that these 2 agreed to get married and is signed by 2 witness - after it's read we brake a plate which .
It used to be a tnoim which is an official shtar that they are fitting married and that is very hard to annul and the stories you heard about couples getting married and divorced right after is because they signed tnoim
Because of that we only sign tnoim right before the chuppa, kalla is mekabel kinyan. And at the engagement it's only a vort which makes it easier to brake the engagement if needed.

Airusim is part of wedding
Kuddishin, airusim, yichud ...

Ema of 5

Thu, Dec 14 2023, 12:56 pm

kenz wrote:

At most of the non chassidish weddings I’ve been to, before the badeken, the two moms will go to the chassan’s room and the tenaim will be signed and they break a plate. After that is the badeken and the chuppah. I don’t recall ever seeing the signing of the tenaim skipped, except at chassidish weddings, where it is done a few months earlier. It is purely symbolic, but like I said, there are those who hold there can be issues if it is signed and then the engagement is broken.

Ema of 5

Thu, Dec 14 2023, 1:05 pm

Pandabeer wrote:

This is the way I’ve always seen it.
Regarding the first bolded, why would people have to travel 2x, aside from his/her parents? Why does anyone who came to the first (even siblings) need to go to the second l’chaim?
Regarding second bolded, if you don’t sign tenaim at the wedding, what exactly is signed? If there are eidim, is it not a legit legal document?