Le chaim. Vort. Tenayim. Irusin ?! Why so many

Chayalle

Wed, Dec 13 2023, 7:18 pm

imaima wrote:

Maybe I should start earlier.
Let’s say, the boy and the girl are serious. The proposal is imminent. Do people on both sides start thinking about cooking or buying food and drinks because maybe le chayim will happen soon?
The the boy proposes and she says yes.
Le chaim same night with food? Le chaim in a couple of days?

At a certain point in DD's dating, I started making something every time she went on a date. (Why then? So she wouldn't know I was doing anything and feel any pressure.) I managed to make a few kugels, some stir fries, and some nice cookies, all in the freezer (I figured YT was coming, in case it didn't work out).

For the L'Chaim, I set up sternos with the hot food, and arranged the cookies in lucite containers. Some nice paper goods and drinks, and we had a L'Chaim.

amother

Denim

Wed, Dec 13 2023, 8:20 pm

Pretty sure my Israeli neighbors called a vort the thing immediately after the engagement occurred, like what in America would be called a lchaim. And then they had an eirusin which was planned for a few days later in a hall, I think they did tenoim there.

amother

Puce

Wed, Dec 13 2023, 8:46 pm

MO and our son in law called us and told us when he was planning to propose. He lived in a different city, so we traveled there on the day of the engagement. Local friends and family came and there were drinks and some desserts that his mother and aunt arranged (although I don't think anyone ate because we were too excited). Both sides made vort or engagement parties in their respective cities a month or so later.

Ema of 5

Wed, Dec 13 2023, 9:18 pm

imaima wrote:

When my husband and I got engaged, it was a spur of the moment thing. No one, not even the two of us, was expecting it to happen so fast. We were on the way to my in laws, so I could meet them. My mother was sitting shiva. I think (but I don’t remember) my husband must have called his parents from the car, because there were l’chaim s and siblings waiting when we got to his parents.

Ema of 5

Wed, Dec 13 2023, 9:19 pm

Chayalle wrote:

They still call it a tenayim, but my Chassidish relatives told me they no longer actually do tenayim. It's just the name that stuck.

Interesting. I know many people who actually do/did sign before the wedding.

Chayalle

Wed, Dec 13 2023, 9:23 pm

Ema of 5 wrote:

Interesting. I know many people who actually do/did sign before the wedding.

Yes, we did a tanayim right before the badeking/Chuppah. They came in with something for DD to sign, and then we (Chosson's mother and myself) went to the men's side, they read it aloud and we broke a plate.

lamplighter

Wed, Dec 13 2023, 9:25 pm

Most people don't bake and cook for the lchaim it's store bought stuff or catered. In chabad we go to the Rebbes Ohel to make the engagement official so yes the close family would know in advance that this was happening. There is no lchaim before the ohel (the proposal is before obviously, many call it unofficially engaged).

Ema of 5

Wed, Dec 13 2023, 9:29 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Right, that’s how many non-chassidim do it. I was saying that I know many chassidim who still do it before the wedding. They sign at the vort, and sometimes it’s called a tenaim instead of a vort. I think it’s just ceremonial for non chassidim. As someone else said, it’s not a halachic requirement. But once it IS signed, then there are consequences if the engagement is broken, which I think is why most non chassidim do it at the wedding.

amother

Thistle

Wed, Dec 13 2023, 9:51 pm

Chabad here.

After my DH proposed, we went to my house for a brief “meet my parents/immediate family” impromptu lechaim.

The following day we traveled to NY, and went to the Rebbe’s ohel to get a bracha for our engagement. We write a letter, say
some Tehilim/maane lashon (a Sefer of what to say at the gravesite of a tzaddik) and we assume that the Rebbe gives his blessing. In our case, we also opened a Sefer with all the Rebbes letters (Igros Kodesh) and got a beautiful bracha for a Chasuna. Then we announced it on all our family and friends chats and made it official!
Some (very few) close relatives were aware before and met us at the Ohel.

Afterwards we went to a close relative’s house to celebrate and some more of our very close friends/relatives came by to say lechaim.

The official Lechaim happened a couple days later in a hall in Crown Heights. We made a kinyan (agreement) that we would marry each other. We picked up a gartel high in the air and smashed a plate.

The next event was our wedding Smile

Tenaim happened at our wedding, right before the kabalas ponim.

Traveller247

Thu, Dec 14 2023, 3:39 am

We signed tenoyim at my engagement and did so by all my siblings, cousins, aunts etc.
We're viznitz but all my chassidish relatives do that (mix of chasiduses).
I've actually never heard of doing it at the wedding!

ChossidMom

Thu, Dec 14 2023, 4:40 am

Here in Israel, in the Charedi community - both Chassidish and Litvish, when a couple gets "engaged" officially (decides to get married) there is a lechaim at the girl's house. This is usually attended by close family and friends. Usually, the kallah's family makes and engagement party a short time later, which is a big event, with food, to which they invite extended family and a larger circle of friends.
Some people have the custom of making tenaim at the engagement party and some do it at the wedding. We don't do tenaim until the wedding.
When my daughter got engaged, we had the lechaim and the "engagement party" at the same time, on our porch, with a mechitza and we had extended family and some friends as well. I feel that throwing a lavish or not lavish party is a waste of money, since the wedding is coming up. One thing about the engagement party, thought, is that it gives the two sides a chance to meet the bro's, sister's, aunts, uncles, cousinse etc. Otherwise, they meet for the first time at the wedding.

When people use the term "vort" they are usually referring either to the lechaim (which is the official decision and announcement to get marrieed) or to the engagement party.

These are the only two events that occur before the wedding.

ChossidMom

Thu, Dec 14 2023, 4:42 am

Traveller247 wrote:

We are chassidish and break a plate only at the wedding.

You know that tenaim are harder to break than an actual marriage? I've heard of cases where a couple had to get married and then divorce in order to break up, after doing tenaim.

traveller!

Thu, Dec 14 2023, 4:48 am

ChossidMom wrote:

I've been told that according to my rabbanim (no idea who, was just told by my father) there is no issue breaking a tenoyim if needed. That no need to go through marriage and then divorce. So I guess it's a matter of opinion otherwise noone would feel the need to do it by the wedding.

amother

Lily

Thu, Dec 14 2023, 5:05 am

amother Rainbow wrote:

Doesn't everyone do tenayim? The only difference is many do tenayim at the wedding, not before. Never heard of erusin done separate from chuppah nowadays.

I've been to a couple of Israeli chareidi erusin in Israel.
Never seen it done in America

kenz

Thu, Dec 14 2023, 7:30 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Everyone has a kesuba.
Not everyone has a shtar tenoyim and the plate breaking associated with it.

My understanding is that if you do it at the chasunah, the kesubah is the tena’im and you don’t need another document. You only need a shtar tena’im when it’s taking place in advance. I never knew there are people who don’t break a plate at the chasunah, before badeken.