Why is it so bad to say H-E-double L ?

seeker

Thu, May 13 2010, 3:34 am

I think of it as a context thing. It is a word with a meaning, when used to mean what it's supposed to mean it is not dirty or anything. But when people start using it rudely, it becomes a rude word.

I would have no qualms about using it in such contexts as:
"Judaism and Christianity have fundamentally different concepts of h#ll"
"Robert had negative associations with religion from a young age because the local clergy would lecture sternly about h#ll, where, presumably, the entire world was headed."
(only editing here because I assume the word would get screened out automatically. In an academic paper I'd just write what I mean.)

However, at a certain point it was more likely to be used in such contexts as, "Go to h#ll" or "What the h#ll" and since it is so monumentally difficult to convince people to just BE NICE, it's easier to just outlaw the words. Which of course makes people replace them with new words, which then change from ordinary words into profanity due to usage, so THEY are taboo'd, and so forth.

That's why the number of "inappropriate" words multiplies exponentially by generation. When I was a kid it was darn and heck. Now we have no shortage of words to inappropriately express frustration.

louche

Thu, May 13 2010, 5:06 am

seeker wrote:

That's why the number of "inappropriate" words multiplies exponentially by generation. When I was a kid it was darn and heck. Now we have no shortage of words to inappropriately express frustration.

OTOH, some objectionable words get demoted with the passage of time to merely quaint. "Poppycock" would have given your great-great-great-aunt Matilda heart spasms, but try using that word today and you'll be taken for your great-great-great-aunt Matilda.

someoneoutthere

Thu, May 13 2010, 9:00 am

Chayalle wrote:

... Like I've heard not to say Hurray. In my home we just say Yay, Yippee, etc...I heard that the word comes from Aru Aru (Ha'omrim Aru Aru - the Babylonians said this while destroying Yerushalayim, and it literally means "destroy, destroy"). The phrase "hip hip hurrah" is an antisemitic slogan, and I've heard it was used by the nazi's Y'SH. HIP comes from HEP, which stands for (latin) Hirosilma et Peridusa - Jerusalem has perished - and was initiated by the Babylonians, and said by the Romans, and on to many other enemies of the Jews, may they all perish.

I can ask my mother the source, but I was taught that this was actually the cry of the Crusaders, if the nazi's used it, it wasn't their own invention.

Hell is a ligitimate word in English. Someone might "live through hell" or have a "hellish experience" or in a discussion of the afterlife I much prefer the word hell to purgatory because there are less Christian connotations. But any word, when used as a curse is wrong. It's simply a lack of refinement in language to curse.

But, as we well know- Heck is where you get Darned for not believing in Gosh. In other words, not always is substituting more 'pareve" words making it all that much better. I do not allow the use of words like "flippin" or "frikkin" because while they are not nivul peh (which the F word is...) the use of them as a substitute is simply uncouth

seeker

Thu, May 13 2010, 9:09 am

ITA with someoneoutthere - the problem with these words is not the terminology, it's the attitude. Learn to deal with frustrations level-headedly and say something constructive rather than spitting out curse words OR euphimisms for same. People who use these words a lot are simply demonstrating their lack of rationality. They can't deal with a situation maturely, so they loudly say "&%$# you!" as if that settles it.

louche

Thu, May 13 2010, 9:17 am

someoneoutthere wrote:

I much prefer the word hell to purgatory because there are less Christian connotations.

Actually, hell and purgatory are two different Christian concepts. Hell is a place for the darn-ed (I am using this is its original and still socially acceptable sense of "condemned") to be punished for eternity. Purgatory is a place for middle=of-the=road sinners who died in a state of grace to be purified, or purged, of their sins so that they then qualify for admission to heaven. Hence the name "purgatory," or a place in which one is purged. Hell is forever; purgatory has limits.

As neither of these concepts exists in the Chumash, the question is, who got it from whom?

I shoulda known--the language police changed my word. Oh, well, if you can figure out what is meant by "knowing the baby's relations before birth" you can figure this out, too.

someoneoutthere

Thu, May 13 2010, 9:54 am

louche wrote:

someoneoutthere wrote:

I much prefer the word hell to purgatory because there are less Christian connotations.

The thing about Purgatory (which happens to be a more Jewish idea of what gehinnom is) is that it has a religious ring to it (non-specific) and in the usual conversation I might have regarding the Jewish view of hell, I try not to use words that put religious (and in this wonderful country that usually means Christian) pre-conceived pictures in people's minds.

JoyInTheMorning

Wed, May 26 2010, 8:01 am

From Chayalle:

Quote:

As a child, I was told to call a certain unfortunately prevelant illness "yeneh machla" yiddish for "that illness". I heard that the previous Rebbe of Belz said that those who don't say the word will never contract the illness. A segulah I guess.

My father used to say "the big C" rather than name the disease, but he contracted it anyway, and a year and a half later, he was dead. However, that may not disprove the Rebbe of Belz's theory, since he (my father) worked in a medical field, and probably had to use the correct word sometimes.

So, does anyone know of someone who never mentioned the disease by name, but nevertheless contracted it?

You know, I'll settle for less:
Among communities where people are careful never to utter the name of the disease, are the rates of that disease lower than among communities where people just call diseases by their name?

I am not trying to be disrespectful, but I don't know what would make avoiding the name o the disease a segulah for not getting it.

On the other hand, it seems to me it might be actually harmful to avoid saying the word, if it leads to lack of information about the disease. If people don't speak about it, and they are therefore less educated about early warning signs, and therefore don't get symptoms checked out when they first arise, and therefore, may unfortunately be diagnosed at a later, less curable disease, what has been gained by the avoidance of a word?

louche

Wed, May 26 2010, 8:17 am

There is a concept of "al tiftach peh laSatan," meaning"don't put words in satan's mouth", IOW don't say something bad lest it come true." That's why we say "chas vechalilah" or "lo aleinu" when mentioning the possibility of something terrible happening. But that is qualitatively different from refusing to name an illness in a neutral way.

Nevertheless, Jews are not alone in flinching from pronouncing words of doom. Nonjews also talk about The Big C or C-A, and many cultures have a belief that speaking the words of something bad gives that something substance and reality--in effect, helps make it happen.

DefyGravity

Wed, May 26 2010, 8:24 am

It's silly to think that people who refrain from saying the word Cancer will never get it. Obviously that's not the case.

There are lots of people that say the Eff word constantly, and I doubt that ensures that they get much of that on a nightly basis either.

JoyInTheMorning

Wed, May 26 2010, 8:27 am

From louche:

Quote:

And in those cultures, it may likewise be the case that the big C is discovered later rather than sooner.

I totally understand saying "lo aleinu" after using the name of the disease, although one may not be able to do so due to one's profession (I can't imagine a physician saying "lo aleinu" after every mention of the disease), or just because it's not polite. (For example, it would seem rude to say that when talking to someone who is proud to have survived the disease.) I can't understand avoiding it when knowledge of its symptoms may prolong life.

Last edited by JoyInTheMorning on Wed, May 26 2010, 8:29 am; edited 2 times in total

louche

Wed, May 26 2010, 9:53 am

DefyGravity wrote:

You are SO bad!