the importance of vaccines!

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The importance of vaccines!

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carrot

Fri, Jun 16 2006, 9:17 am

It's not conspiracy theories to point out that doing big studies takes money, and the people who are willing to shell out the money are usually people who stand to make money from the results of the study.

mimsy7420

Fri, Jun 16 2006, 9:30 am

I dont agree with that - there seems to be money for the all sorts of things- to save the koala bears in Africa for example. All it takes is one big rich anti-vaccinater to back a study.
So are you telling me there was never even one proper empirical study done on the dangers of vaccination?
So where do all the anti-vaccinaters get their data from?

imaamy

Fri, Jun 16 2006, 10:37 am

Carrot, have you ever met anyone who has had polio or another disease that vaccines can prevent?

carrot

Fri, Jun 16 2006, 10:56 am

I have no idea whether an empirical study was done on the dangers of vaccination. And I don't think it's my job to convince you of anything when the same things that I have read, you are free to read yourself. I'm just pointing out that financial realities are very real and it is not a bad idea to be a little bit less trusting.

It is not as simple as "one big rich anti-vaccinator." Unless you're talking about Bill Gates? Then maybe. But it is really not that simple and being a little bit cynical is not the same as being a paranoid conspiracy theorist.

One thing I have learnt over the past few years: There is no such thing as "they." You know what "they" I'm talking about - the ones who change the bulbs in street lights, who decide what pictures should be on the stamps, who run the army, who save the koala bears... Well there is no such entity. Each thing is done by a specific individual or organization of individuals, and they are human too. Whatever forces influence you in one way or another, are like to influence "them" too. Whatever limitations you experience, "they" experience too. Until somebody decided to save the koala bears, nobody did. There is no automatic "they."

To say that "there seems to be money for all sorts of things," so if no rich man sponsored a study convincing enough to make its way into your doctors hands and change his mind and convince him to convince you not to vaccinate your kids --> therefore it must be that there is no scientific basis to not vaccinating... well to me that smacks a little too much of faith in the Power of "They."

On a side note, I have heard of studies that ran counter to usual medical wisdom and were denied publication in peer-reviewed medical journals. It is probably easier to save koala bears than to open people's minds once they are made up.

Now that I think about it, where could an anti-vac researcher even get his numbers from? How could he get hold of the numbers he needed? Who would report to him? Seriously, how could it be done?

Also I am little bit puzzled by the attitude in this thread. Do you want this to be discussed, both sides of the issue, or do you want to have an exclusive pro-vac thread? I am not in any way interested in arguing this out with anyone but in case anyone else is, it might be a good idea to decide what kind of thread you want this to be.

Last edited by carrot on Fri, Jun 16 2006, 10:59 am; edited 1 time in total

carrot

Fri, Jun 16 2006, 10:57 am

imaamy wrote:

Carrot, have you ever met anyone who has had polio or another disease that vaccines can prevent?

I am not interested in entering into a debate on this topic. I am only interested in trying to make people understand that saying that money or other practical considerations influence what doctors recommend is not a conspiracy theory. Once people understand that, and start to think for themselves, they can do their own research with an open mind and reach whatever conclusion makes sense to them.

mimsy7420

Fri, Jun 16 2006, 11:02 am

I don't know....
The tobacco industry is multi multi billion dollar industry. But somehow, somewhere the data made it through that smoking is very very bad for you. Even though probably a lot of "they" had interests to keep those sorts of studies quiet - somehow the truth prevailed. Even though probably many very high goverment officials had direct connections with that industry and it was in their best interest to keep that sort of data quiet (for their own financial gain)- the trust still prevailed.

It cannot be that in no lab in the whole entire world - even the labs that aren't government funded - and that are privately funded by people with have nothing better to do with their money then wait until they can link their name to a "medical and scientific breakthrough". And proving that vaccines are actually making kids sicker - would be a huge medical breakthrough - and data like that can only be "quashed" for so long.

This is a vaccine discussion - if you are getting offended by any of these posts - or don't think you can properly contribute to this discussion without getting all antsy and defensive - then maybe you should just not post here. I have some honest questions that don't make sense to me about not vaccinated your children.

And I agree with Secbub - for the young mothers who happen upon the natural parenting section and read those conspiracy theories- it's important we have this discussion.

carrot

Fri, Jun 16 2006, 11:24 am

Quote:

[quote="only1"]I don't know....
The tobacco industry is multi multi billion dollar industry. But somehow, somewhere the data made it through that smoking is very very bad for you. Even though probably a lot of "they" had interests to keep those sorts of studies quiet - somehow the truth prevailed. Even though probably many very high goverment officials had direct connections with that industry and it was in their best interest to keep that sort of data quiet (for their own financial gain)- the trust still prevailed.

Do you know how long it took? Do you know how prevalent smoking still is? Do you know how many cultures still consider smoking a normal part of a healthy lifestyle? Do you know whether it is possible they are not so wrong? Do you know how many other companies that produce things that are just as dangerous, are still totally free to lure little kids into starting to use them? Etc.

Quote:

It cannot be that in no lab in the whole entire world - even the labs that aren't government funded - and that are privately funded by people with have nothing better to do with their money then wait until they can link their name to a "medical and scientific breakthrough".

What labs are you talking about?

Quote:

And proving that vaccines are actually making kids sicker - would be a huge medical breakthrough - and data like that can only be "quashed" for so long.

How do you know that that has not already been done, and that this conversation we're having is part of the "unquashing"? How can you be sposure that such data would be welcomed and not shunned?

Quote:

This is a vaccine discussion - if you are getting offended by any of these posts - or don't think you can properly contribute to this discussion without getting all antsy and defensive - then maybe you should just not post here. I have some honest questions that don't make sense to me about not vaccinated your children.

If I understand correctly, you want people to answer but not get offended. Or do you want people to defend their views without getting defensive. Please clarify.

Quote:

And I agree with Secbub - for the young mothers who happen upon the natural parenting section and read those conspiracy theories- it's important we have this discussion.

So do you want anti-vaccers in the discussion or not?

mimsy7420

Fri, Jun 16 2006, 11:52 am

Quote:

[quote="carrot"]

Quote:

Do you know how long it took?

Of course it took a long time - there was a obviously a lot of interest to keep that sort of data quashed. But everyone in the scientific community knew about the data and it obviously was not kept quiet for long. So I still can't believe that there is no data in the whole 50 years since the vaccine was discovered, that the risks outweigh the benefits.

This is taken from a biography of Jonas Salk.

"In 1955 Salk's years of research paid off. Human trials of the polio vaccine effectively protected the subject from the polio virus. When news of the discovery was made public on April 12, 1955, Salk was hailed as a miracle worker. He further endeared himself to the public by refusing to patent the vaccine. He had no desire to profit personally from the discovery, but merely wished to see the vaccine disseminated as widely as possible."

Quote:

Do you know how prevalent smoking still is? Do you know how many cultures still consider smoking a normal part of a healthy lifestyle?

No doctor I know would suggest I start to smoke or would tell me that smoking is not so bad - so I'm not sure how that is relevent. The point is if the field of medicine today could bring down a huge giant like the tobacco industry - then why could they not do it with vaccines?

Quote:

Do you know how many other companies that produce things that are just as dangerous, are still totally free to lure little kids into starting to use them? Etc.

yes, that is why there is proper research done to show us what is bad for us - and the people who go to these conferances and read the studies where they show new medical breakthroughs are properly liscenced doctors.

Quote:

What labs are you talking about?

A lot of labs are not funded by the government. They get their funding by people who wish to see new breakthroughs in science and medicine help cure the world from diseases.

Quote:

And proving that vaccines are actually making kids sicker - would be a huge medical breakthrough - and data like that can only be "quashed" for so long.

How do you know that that has not already been done, and that this conversation we're having is part of the "unquashing"? How can you be sposure that such data would be welcomed and not shunned?

Because I don't believe in conspiracy theories. If I lived my life that way I would end up like Mel Gibson in the movie "conspiracy theory". Do you believe every conspiracy theory you read - like who assasinated Rabin or who shot JFK? What about Area 51 - that's a great one. Or just the ones regarding vaccinations?

Quote:

If I understand correctly, you want people to answer but not get offended. Or do you want people to defend their views without getting defensive. Please clarify.

This is a friendly debate - if that interests you then by all mean participate.

Quote:

And I agree with Secbub - for the young mothers who happen upon the natural parenting section and read those conspiracy theories- it's important we have this discussion.

So do you want anti-vaccers in the discussion or not?[/quote

]

Please do. I want to learn exactly why one chooses to not vaccinate.

southernbubby

Fri, Jun 16 2006, 12:13 pm

Personally I am very torn about vaccines. My youngest son had a horrible reaction to a flu vaccine when he was almost 6 and has never had another vaccine since. In a year and a half, (I'Y"H"), he will be an adult and it will be his decision. He seems to want the menningitis vaccine and will need to get some real info on the risks to him personally. What if his doctor talks him into something (chas v'sholem)? I am sure he will so his research but that does not make me feel secure. There will most likely be a bird flu vaccine and we will have to make a decision about that as well.

amother

Fri, Jun 16 2006, 2:19 pm

I don't feel that I am getting through here at all. I am not interested in trying to convince anyone of any particular thing. I am not even trying to prove any anti-vac position. I am simply trying to communicate the possibity that established medical wisdom is not necessarily correct.

Quote:

Do you know how many other companies that produce things that are just as dangerous, are still totally free to lure little kids into starting to use them? Etc.

This is circular reasoning! I am saying that there are dangerous things that these almighty licensed doctors are not finding out in their conferences and not telling you... You are telling me that you are sure that you are finding out about anything you need to know, because doctors always find these things out and tell you. And you know this is true because your doctor told you so... And you trust him because everyone else trusts him. And those of us who don't, well, we don't know what we're talking about because we're just a bunch of conspiracy theorists and by definition crazy, proven by the fact that we don't trust doctors like everyone else who of course trusts their doctors because they are correct because if they weren't correct they wouldn't be doctors, etc. etc.

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion. You say you don't believe in comspiracy theories but it seems to me that you believe in the opposite: universal benevolence. If you'd like to forgo your right to your own researched opinion and just trust blindly in your doctor, I guess you have the right to make that choice too.

If you can get past this iron-clad rule that doctors are always right, I'm sure you could get all your sincere questions answered in the natural parenting section (or anywhere else) without anybody getting annoyed or defensive. But when you can't even listen to the first thing that anybody says because just the fact that they differ from your doctor pasels them before they even say anything, I'm sure you can see that the conversation was over before it began.

In any case I seem to be encountering more rudeness than I believe I earned. So I am going to stop posting.

carrot

Fri, Jun 16 2006, 2:26 pm

Oops! That was me. I didn't realize that I clicked to do it anonymous.

preggymama

Fri, Jun 16 2006, 2:34 pm

Please keep this discussion going! I am iyh expecting my first child and we are still undecided on whether or not to vaccinate. I am very interested in learning both points of view and which risks are involved both ways in order to make a proper decision. Can anyone recommend any good books about this?

mimsy7420

Fri, Jun 16 2006, 3:54 pm

Quote:

[quote="amother"]
This is circular reasoning! I am saying that there are dangerous things that these almighty licensed doctors are not finding out in their conferences and not telling you... You are telling me that you are sure that you are finding out about anything you need to know, because doctors always find these things out and tell you. And you know this is true because your doctor told you so... And you trust him because everyone else trusts him. And those of us who don't, well, we don't know what we're talking about because we're just a bunch of conspiracy theorists and by definition crazy, proven by the fact that we don't trust doctors like everyone else who of course trusts their doctors because they are correct because if they weren't correct they wouldn't be doctors, etc. etc.

So the only thing that you can tell me that proves vaccinating could be bad - is because all the doctors in the world could be covering up the fact that they are bad? All the reputable pediatricians who go to conferences, are constantly reading new studies, and are staying on top of the research are really in truth - covering up the fact that these vaccines they are giving, are in fact, causing more harm then good? I don't know, but if my kindly pediatrician, who also happens to be frum, mind you, knew that vaccinations could be bad, trust me, every single person in our frum community would know it. There are ethics involved here you know. If there was one doctor in the whole community where I live, then yes maybe I would question every single little thing that comes out of his mouth. But there are lots of doctors in the community, a lot of them frum.

Quote:

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion. You say you don't believe in comspiracy theories but it seems to me that you believe in the opposite: universal benevolence. If you'd like to forgo your right to your own researched opinion and just trust blindly in your doctor, I guess you have the right to make that choice too.

What good does my researched opinion do? Because I've read a few articles and took a few books out the library, talked to a few people - do I think that compares to proper empirical research (the type of research that for some reason is lacking for the anti-vaccinating point of view and that you think some worldwide conspiracy is sitting on but not revealing in order to make money). So do I think I'm well enough researched to make that kind of decision, when people who sit in medical school where the focus is on learning to make people better, not sicker, know nothing? I'm sorry but I can't think that my puny knowledge I could acquire at the local library would matter how much I research.

Quote:

If you can get past this iron-clad rule that doctors are always right.

But you haven't given me any reason why I should not listen to doctors. Just because you tell me I should not listen to my doctor, then boom, all the years of trust and respect are gone out the window?
You just keep on telling me that doctors are wrong, and I should not listen to them, and it's not Torah Mesinai.
Could you please give me one good reason why?

amother

Fri, Jun 16 2006, 4:17 pm

Quote:

[quote="only1"]
Could you please give me one good reason why?

This sums it all up. only1, you do not want a reason. Why are you even bothering? Your tone is challenging and rude.
All parents who do not vaccinate their kids, (including big Rabbanim), are all conspiracy theorists, who are crazy and whacked. They never believe their doctors. They think that their doctors are evil. (That is even assuming that they have doctors). They live in the forest and eat granola and tofu!
There! Are you happy now?
So go your merry way and be bloody happy with the well-informed, decision that you have made for your children. Hopefully they wont get any bad reaction from any vaccines in their whole life, because I shudder to think what will happen if they do.

mimsy7420

Fri, Jun 16 2006, 4:46 pm

[quote="amother"]

Quote:

only1 wrote:

Could you please give me one good reason why?

Whoa - a little defensive are we?
So come out and say it to my face - don't hide behind an anonymous mask.

I happen to think that the mods should delete that comment, wishing a bad reaction on my children from vaccines? Yup I really deserved that. Asking innocent questions - about something I do not understand. Yup. You want rude?
(I EDITED MY OWN RUDE COMMENT)
Now that was rude.
If you cannot participate in a debate without getting all and hot bothered then please feel free to stay away. No one is forcing you to read this.

Quote:

Could you please give me one good reason why?

Because I said that?????
You'd make a comment like that because I said that?????
If you do not like my questions do not read them - stay away from this thread.

I did not mean it rudely- I really want to understand. I want to know why I should not trust my doctor. Carrot kept on saying that the whole premise of anti-vaccination begins with not believing everything the doctor says but I want to know why that is. What are the reasons that I should not trust him? She said I cannot understand anything about this until I understand that point - but she didn't give me a reason, she just said - don't trust them. So pretty please I would like a reason.

Last edited by mimsy7420 on Fri, Jun 16 2006, 6:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Fri, Jun 16 2006, 5:51 pm

[quote="only1"]

Quote:

[. You want rude?
Well here goes - I hope your children do not contract polio and end up in an iron lung.

Whoa, can you restrain yourself here. I never wished anything bad upon you and I am quite shocked and appalled by what you wrote. I never wrote anything like that and insinuated as such. How could you have read it like that?

Maybe its time to look inside yourself and realize, you are not ready for any rational discussions. You have a clear chip on your shoulder and an ax to grind. And you opened this thread with a very clear agenda. Those who truly wish to get educated do not go about it the way you have.

Good luck...

mimsy7420

Fri, Jun 16 2006, 6:05 pm

Well I was pretty shocked and appalled by what you wrote. And guess what - you did it first!

Quote:

Hopefully they wont get any bad reaction from any vaccines in their whole life, because I shudder to think what will happen if they do.

But at least I KNOW I was rude - whereas you are pretending that you are all innocent.

Yes I do think one way about vaccinations. And yes I do want to have a debate to understand the other side.

This is a debate - that means we are each trying to show the other our point of view. And as I said before - if you cannot constructively participate in a DEBATE then please do not read these threads.
Yes I have been challenging - and I've gotten some very good and just as challenging answers back from others, such as Carrot.
This is not the natural parenting section - if you want love and support and that sort of thing then please feel free to make your way there.
THIS IS THE CONTROVERSIAL TOPICS SECTION. So enter at your own risk! If you do not like what you see here - then TOO BAD.
You can put in as many challenging questions as you want and they are welcome.

If that does not interest you then please do not bud in and make rude annonymous comments.

amother

Fri, Jun 16 2006, 6:19 pm

[quote="only1"]

Quote:

Well here goes - I hope your children do not contract polio and end up in an iron lung.
Now that was rude.

im not here to defend others, but I have to say, you were pretty vicious to this amother. I dont think she deserved this. im just passing through this thread so I am posting anon b/c I dont want to get involved in further discussion. but even im shocked by what you wrote. how can you wish another jew bad like that. just because were in the controversy section, doesnt mean we can get so hurtful like this.

no harm meant.
good shabbos to all.

mimsy7420

Fri, Jun 16 2006, 6:26 pm

Quote:

Hopefully they wont get any bad reaction from any vaccines in their whole life, because I shudder to think what will happen if they do.

I was trying to show her that what she said to ME was rude.

I almost threw up when I saw what she wrote to me FIRST.

Not that it makes it right what I wrote.

I just wrote it to make a point that I can be rude also and at least I don't hide behind amother to do it.

And I wrote - "ok I am going to be rude now". Just to show that it's very easy to be rude - and much harder to participate in an active debate.

I will edit my comment now since I do not like to be rude - will amother edit hers?

amother

Fri, Jun 16 2006, 7:27 pm

I agree with only1 on this one.

although both comments were rude, if you can't handle the debate and challenge then don't read the thread

anon because I dont want to get into this discussion

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