my dd wants to go to secular college....

WriterMom

Wed, Jul 28 2010, 10:31 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

I know what OP and her husband are going through; it's not mainstream for frum kids to go out of their element to a secular school. But we realized long ago that our kids aren't the type to sit with a sefer and block out the world, if you know what I mean.

Al pi darko, right? May we all have the wisdom to love and prepare the kids we're given, not the kids we think we should have, or we want the neighbors to think we have, etc ...

I remember reading the 7 Habits of Hgihly Effective People, and the author basically talks about how he and his wife became excellent parents (their adult kids agree) when they started paying more attention to each kid's individual traits.

NotInNJMommy

Wed, Jul 28 2010, 10:34 pm

I think there's a lot in between philosophy and herbal tea on one hand, and hard partying on the other...and a lot of that opens up a lot of difficulties to a frum person.

I thought I was pretty mature in college, and I probably was, but at the same time, I wouldn't have wanted to be the only person who couldn't go out to eat with the rest of the gang or didn't go to that movie or didn't hang out socially with boys...things which may not be the most appropriate thing for OP's dd (or other member's dd's) to be doing...

As it was, I really became frum at the end of undergrad/into grad school, in hindsight, because that's when I was actually mature enough to accept who I was and be myself...I don't think most kids are ready for that at 18... It would be nice if everyone was, but it just is life IMHO, and we don't ask for nisyonos.

Tova

Wed, Jul 28 2010, 10:35 pm

I went to secular college (got engaged at the end of the summer, about 2 months after I graduated). It was the cheapest (got full academic scholarship like many BY girls) and fastest way to a marketable degree/certification (I sat for the CPA exam after 2 full years. This was with seminary credits and credits in senior year of high school). I was definately conflicted at the time, but once I started the program I saw the benefits of it. The thing is, I feel like my kids are going to grow up more sheltered than I did and if they want to go to college my stomach churns at them attending a secular university like I did. I went to a very frum seminary and was likely the only one to have gone to such a place.

sequoia

Wed, Jul 28 2010, 10:43 pm

NotInNJMommy wrote:

I thought I was pretty mature in college, and I probably was, but at the same time, I wouldn't have wanted to be the only person who couldn't go out to eat with the rest of the gang or didn't go to that movie or didn't hang out socially with boys...things which may not be the most appropriate thing for OP's dd (or other member's dd's) to be doing...

Frum kids generally hang out with other frum kids. They do shabbat together and everything.

Okay, obviously if hanging out socially with boys, in a group setting, is a problem then maybe secular college could be difficult. The frum kids that I saw in college seemed to be getting along swimmingly.

amother

Thu, Jul 29 2010, 1:13 am

amother wrote:

My dd wants to to to Kingsborough or Brooklyn but coming out of a frum girl's high school even if she'll be living at home, I think it's quite a culture shock-going to school with non jews and guys-the world is open, anything is possible-even for a kid not looking for trouble. I'm trying to convince her these are NOT good choices for her....

Amother, I am one of the posters above and like I said in my post (not sure how to point u to it since I was amother) I went to Brooklyn college...went to a 'mainstream' BY in Brooklyn, and a right wing (black hat, not "modern orthodox") seminary! I married a guy who was learning in Beis Medresh during the day and in Touro at night 2x/wk. and honestly, it was NOT a bad idea from me! it would have been if:
a) I was from out of town and was living in NY all on my own
b) I was a bit of a rebellious teenager who got in a little bit of trouble with boys in HS and my parents needed to control me and watch my every move

I really did not see it as looking for trouble. It was a bit of an (unfortunate perhaps?) reality check for me and helped me mature a ton. the "real world" (at least in my profession) is not what I saw or experienced in Bais Yaakov. And learning that while I was still at home in the safe haven cocoon of my parents home made it much easier to make the transition to graduate school and later on to the professional world. It was not me and my naive husband trying to make tough decisions in terms of interactions on our own, I was able to sort everything out with my parents who are older and wiser.
Bklyn College is not a dorm school with a dorm campus, so there is not that same "campus life" feel you might be worrying about. But even so, people went out to bars to celebrate finals, and I learned how to explain why I was gracefully bowing out. I learned how to interact with males (like an assigned male lab partner) in a tzniyusdik, professional way and in the process made a kiddush hashem with an African American nice guy who had really never had anything to do with a Jew in his life. I learned that outside of BY/Yeshivos, school calendars to not revolve around Pesach and Succos, and to survive in a profession where you are interacting with the secular world, you have to figure out how to budget your time. And there was enough of a frum presence (and by frum, I mean people like me, not people who were Orthodox but far more liberal and to the left of where I came from- other BY girls) that I felt totally comfortable and never needed to prove anything to anyone.
I think Touro is a great option for many people. My DH graduated from Touro and has B"H gotten far in his profession. I have siblings who went to Touro and loved it. Most of my HS friends went to Touro. But it is not for everyone, and there are certain professions where Touro might not be the way to go.

Mrs Bissli

Thu, Jul 29 2010, 1:17 am

Well, there are colleges and there are colleges... You'll need to check the schools (like how much of students commute vs live on campus), and speak with Chabad shulchim or Hillel director about how adequate the frum environment is. I must agree with others on practical difficulty of dorming, UNLESS you can secure an accomodation at Hillel House etc.

I got an impression that OP needs to sit down with both DH and DD and list their respective concerns. What aspect of secular college bothers DH? Why does DD think frum colleges are inferior (ok, we may know the answer but let her elaborate--she needs to be able to convince her parents) and what she thinks wants to do after college. Is she mature enough and ready to challenge/be challenged her thinkings?

One thing to note--I'm not saying it's inevitable DD needs to hang out with the boys, but most colleges I know require group projects or even pair projects which are inevitably going to be co-ed. Would she feel comfortable with that? (could be where OP's DH's objection comes from...) Barnard (though you can take courses at Columbia) is a women's college that has many frum single women.

stockprincess

Thu, Jul 29 2010, 2:16 am

I attended maalot before I was married and an Ivy League university after. I was a typical BY graduate, worldly in some ways, and unconsciously naïve in others. There are major issues in secular universities, and there is a reason that rabbanim have come out so strongly against them, so that its considered so controversial in chareidi circles.
Firstly in my opinion is the cynical, libertarian attitude prevalent among university students for decades. Our (assimilated jewish) professor practically forced his left-wing and atheist agends down our throats, despite them being totally irrelevant to the subject manner. Other classes such as philosophy, religion, and even feminism, spout theories that are virulently anti-torah. When forced to dwell on these topics for the purposes of essay writing etc, it is not so easy to just shrug them off. These attitudes from the staff and students are... influential, if by no other means than osmosis, and have a way of subtly coloring our own outlooks.
Furthermore, as open-minded as your daughter may be, is she really ready to hear about her fellow students' s-xual exploits and orientations - albeit within the academic context, of course. In my English core course I had to write a persuasive paper debating the merits of [filth]. We need to fully appreciate the extent and merits of our insular lifestyle.
The social aspect of college should also not be disregarded. A frum girl will ideally stick to herself as much as possible, but you know what? its not fun! I felt really isolated a lot of the time. And as cavalier as we may be about our ability to decline an invite or reject an inappropriate handshake, I had to struggle with myself every time.
One needs to way the caliber of education and the real benefits to be gained. no offense, but Brooklyn college just isn't Harvard, so is it really worth it? undergrad life is very different than more focused graduate programs, and the strengths and ramifications of a single girl and her lifestyle are very different from a married woman's.
Hatzlacha in whatever you decide, and Daas Torah is always the best guide and guarantee for success.

Ruchel

Thu, Jul 29 2010, 4:51 am

There was no Jewish university, the very concept would make me laugh. So like most frum people (some do go to sem/yesh before or after) I went to university.

I received no "guidance", it was something NORMAL. I was just following the foot steps of my chief rabbi (Phd philosophy) and the one before and probably the one before and...

Quote:

Our (assimilated jewish) professor practically forced his left-wing and atheist agends down our throats, despite them being totally irrelevant to the subject manner.

So complain.

Quote:

Other classes such as philosophy, religion, and even feminism, spout theories that are virulently anti-torah.

I never had such classes, in 8 years of university.

Quote:

When forced to dwell on these topics for the purposes of essay writing etc, it is not so easy to just shrug them off.

Davka for me it made me even more sure I was right, when I had philosophy in high school. So ridiculous!

Quote:

Furthermore, as open-minded as your daughter may be, is she really ready to hear about her fellow students' s-xual exploits and orientations - albeit within the academic context, of course. In my English core course I had to write a persuasive paper debating the merits of [filth].

I'm sorry you went to a crazy university. I never heard people debating anything. A good % was either virgin or in serious couple, too.

I also think I heard of one party. My friends went (very good girls) and left around 11 because nothing was happening.

You gotta choose right. My rav told me to NOT go to sem because there was nothing for a not dati, not charedi, not BT girl around. My dh's rav told him to prefer a good public university to YU (he heard the name and thought it was charedi, so he asked his ruv who said no). So let's not be so quick to say it's bad.

amother

Thu, Jul 29 2010, 7:01 am

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

Our (assimilated jewish) professor practically forced his left-wing and atheist agends down our throats, despite them being totally irrelevant to the subject manner.

So complain.

Quote:

Other classes such as philosophy, religion, and even feminism, spout theories that are virulently anti-torah.

I never had such classes, in 8 years of university.

Quote:

When forced to dwell on these topics for the purposes of essay writing etc, it is not so easy to just shrug them off.

Davka for me it made me even more sure I was right, when I had philosophy in high school. So ridiculous!

Quote:

In North American and Israeli universtities, the profs teach their subject matter through their own ideological lense (I suspect it happens in France too...) And the ideological lense is usually very leftist, feminist, atheist.

I went to three different universities and I doubt there were 'many' virgins walking those halls. Most people were either playing the field/had played the field/ or in a serious relationship which obviously included physical relations. I don't know which university you attended, but I'd be surprised to hear that in France in the 21st century more than 15-20% of 20 yr old university students are virgins.

Even so, I think you should let your daughter go. You can only stifle a child so much. She's an adult, it's time for her to deal with this stuff if she wants to. A good education is paramount, and you're lucky you have a daughter who wants one. So many couldn't care less. I would advise choosing a university that is known more for its studying than for its partying, and NOT staying in the dorms, unless there's a large frum population there. Better to rent an apartment with some frum girls. Actually, I think if you can find a place with a frum student population, they will congregate together and the above factors I listed won't be so relevant.

Ruchel

Thu, Jul 29 2010, 7:07 am

Quote:

You cannot be 100% objective when you teach. But you can and should stick to the topic. One thing in passing is one thing. Who cares. But the "whole" has to be objective and relatively neutral.

I had btw some very right wing teachers too, including an old Scottish retired military man, a Xtian woman with 10 kids...

G-d was never in program and never mentioned as existing or not. Politics is NOT to be discussed in class, even in uni. Feminist, I guess, though they never said anything I found shocking, so they couldn't be that extreme...

Quote:

I don't know which university you attended, but I'd be surprised to hear that in France in the 21st century more than 15-20% of 20 yr old university students are virgins.

I attended two different universities. You hang out with the group you want...
Yes there are definitely virgins, and that's without counting if there are frum Jews, Xtians or Muslims in your uni, then some are "shomer negia" too.
I never felt alone, and I wasn't even the most "extreme" religious... though the only Yid for years.

I personally would never allow the dorms! The kid lives at home, period.

imaima

Thu, Jul 29 2010, 7:17 am

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

Our (assimilated jewish) professor practically forced his left-wing and atheist agends down our throats, despite them being totally irrelevant to the subject manner.

So complain.

Quote:

Other classes such as philosophy, religion, and even feminism, spout theories that are virulently anti-torah.

I never had such classes, in 8 years of university.

Quote:

When forced to dwell on these topics for the purposes of essay writing etc, it is not so easy to just shrug them off.

Davka for me it made me even more sure I was right, when I had philosophy in high school. So ridiculous!

Quote:

Ruchel, I think european universities give much more freedom to their students than American ones. You can do your own thing, come to class twice and show up at the exam, and you are fine most of the time.