Moshiach | Imamother

Rivka

Tue, Mar 01 2005, 5:45 pm

Ok, alot of things we believe in always ends up to Moshiach. The final part to our reason for being on earth. But really, no-body really knows what this will entail and what it will be like. We always get the same vague message of eutopia. So really what will it be like and if you look at everything that is written would you then be able to figure it out, or is it so enclosed in secrecy, that no code could ever break to the truth, before it is time?
So really what I was thinking of was about death. We don't know much about that either, what really happens up there and what life after death really entails. Infact the glimpses we get are so similar to what we get told about what will happen when Moshiach comes, it made me wonder about it.
Heaven is on this earth. Just another dimension, but we can't see it. But that is why some people seem to have a "gift" of seeing the dead or being visited by them. They just are able to see through the screen.
So maybe all Moshiach will be, is for the screen to be removed. So the dead will not wake up. It will be more like we all die and live in the world to come, but that will be the world. So we will see the dead like they have risen. It will also explain how the war before Moshiach will last 3 seconds.
3 seconds due to nucleur warfare and it'll have to wipe out everybody, so everybody will die and then suddenly Moshiach? Nope, we all die and that will be moshiach.
Sorry this is just my own thoughts on it, I am not bringing down quotes or anything, coz there are none about this idea. If anyone has quotes then great. I am lazy.

gryp

Tue, Mar 01 2005, 5:58 pm

Rivka- this is actually a very famous machlokes between the Ramban and I think the Rambam, im not sure. the machlokes is whether or not Yemos Hamoshiach will be just Neshamos (dead people) or Neshamos in Gufim (alive people). We go by the Ramban and believe that we will be alive, Neshamos in Gufim.

there is so much information on this subject. it is really very fascinating. it seems like certain people will have to die, and certain people will be able to go straight the way they are. I have to review what I just read and ill get back here.

Rivka

Tue, Mar 01 2005, 7:18 pm

wow, makes me glad to know I am not a raving loony. But I would love to hear what the Rambam and Ramban disagree on and really the fact we pick the Rambam's point, is it because it is easier for us to digest? Or really are they saying the same thing, just one is watered down for us to understand it better and make us feel better about it? Truth is I wouldn't see the Ramban's point as being bad, I would see it as making more sense and in a way better than us being alive in our bodies. Aren't our bodies a limitation to us? Bodies are a burden. Like galus is a burden, so it would make sense we would have no bodies and just be souls. It would also explain how only the good non Jews will be around when Moshiach comes too, as they also go to heaven if they are good, but I think they tend to get stuck in the physical world, even if they are not phyisical, so they will probably be stuck there forever, which isn't too great for them, or will they just dissapear into nothing?

mommy4

Tue, Jul 26 2005, 10:39 pm

Moshiach, there is so much to say...

I´ll just share 3 thoughts which are actually connected.

1)Chassidus explains that the purpose of creation is that Hashem wanted a dira bitachtonim, a dwelling place(home) in the lowest realm, this lowly physical world we live in. Therefore His Essence is here even though we don´t feel it in a revealed way. By doing Torah and Mitzvos we reveal
G-dliness in this world and we connect to Hashem´s Essence.

It says in Pirkei Avos that one hour of teshuva and maasim tovim in this world is more than all the pleasure of the world to come. Meaning, the neshamos enjoy the light of Hashem yet when a Jew, a soul in a body, fulfills a mitzvah or studies Torah, he connects and unites with Hashem Himself. There is no greater bond than that. This opportunity is only in this physical world, a neshama in a guf.

2)Therefore, the greatest reward in the days of Moshiach will also be experienced neshamas in gufim. The world will remain but our perception will change as you said it will be as if the screen (concealment) will be removed.

3)Chassidus explains that the source of the guf is actually higher than the source of the neshama. It´s a very profound concept that is discussed at length in many maamorim(chassidic discourses). That´s why when Moshiach comes the guf will remain, according to the Ramban, because its source will be revealed. Now we get inspired from the spiritual I.e. the soul nurtures the body, when Moshiach comes, the body will be refined and we will be constantly inspired.

Can´t wait Smile

Motek

Mon, May 21 2007, 2:33 pm

reviving this thread to respond with sources to sarahd and stem (because the thread you were discussing this in, has vanished):

The idea of Jews pointing to a leader, whom they have come to recognize
as Moshiach is found in classic Jewish sources, Rabbi Akiva being the most famous.
Here are some references:

Gemara Sanhedrin 98b: "What is Moshiach's name? at the yeshiva of RabbiShilo they said that his name was Shilo. at Rabbi Yanai's yeshiva they believed that it was Yinon......". Rashi explains that each student
believed that it was his Rebbe.

see also Sanhedrin there where Rabbi Chiya suggests that it is his teacher, Reb Yehuda Hanosi and then he adds that if Moshiach is going to be someone who is deceased then it would be Daniel.

the Sdei Chemed writes in his book (Maarechet 1; 70) that it is
evident from here that Moshiach could from the deceased as well (the
Abarbanel in his book Yeshuot Meshicho also brings this proof as well as
others. He also cites from the students of the Arizal that they openly claimed that the Arizal was the Moshiach.

Rabbi Tzadok Hakohen of Lublin in Pri Tzadik (Devarim 19) reiterates that
every student felt that it was his rebbe who is the Moshiach

Rabbi Pinchos of Koritz in Imrei Pinchos states that the Rambam believed
that he himself was Moshiach.

the Ohr Hachaim Hakadosh in Parshas Re'eh writes that he himself is Moshiach.

the Maharal of Prague in his book Nesivos Olam v.2 p.83 quotes a letter from his student where he refers to the Maharal, his rebbe, as the Moshiach Tzidkeinu, Melech Yehudah.....etc.

the Sefer Safra Rabba De'Yisroel (Chasam Sofer's life) it mentions that the
Chasam Sofer pointed to his student Reb Moshe Kanisha, that he is the
Moshiach of that generation.

the introduction of Baal Shem Tov Al Hatorah cites Reb Nochum of Chernobyl as insisting even after the Baal Shem Tov's passing that he was and still is Moshiach

a sefer called HaTekufah veHaGeulah writes that among different Chassidic sects, the Chassidim of those sects would refer to their Rebbe as Moshiach. Examples cited were Chassidim of the Baal Shem Tov, Karlin, Ger... and others as well.

stem

Sun, May 27 2007, 5:33 pm

Re: those who believed their Rebbe was Mashiach, or those who said they themselves are (could be) mashiach: I think we all know that there is potential for a mashiach in every generation. It's not surprising that people would think their holy rebbe is worthy of being mashiach in that genaration. As far as I know nobody in history coronated himself as mashiach except shabtai tzvi and other false mashiachs.

Re: that gemara that if mashiach would have been from the deceased it would have been daniel: My husband said that is one of the most difficult gemaras to understand. Though individuals may have interpreted it to mean that Mashiach could actually be someone who's already deceased, there are many great gedolim who have struggled with this gemara and still find it an extremely obscure, deep statement... it's not as simple as you make it sound.

Motek

Sun, May 27 2007, 6:17 pm

stem wrote:

As far as I know nobody in history coronated himself as mashiach except shabtai tzvi and other false mashiachs.

Rabbi Pinchos of Koritz in Imrei Pinchos states that the Rambam believed
that he himself was Moshiach.

the Ohr Hachaim Hakadosh in Parshas Re'eh writes that he himself is Moshiach.

Quote:

it's not as simple as you make it sound.

it wasn't meant as a pilpul, but a quote from a Torah source

stem

Sun, May 27 2007, 9:04 pm

Motek wrote:

stem wrote:

As far as I know nobody in history coronated himself as mashiach except shabtai tzvi and other false mashiachs.

Rabbi Pinchos of Koritz in Imrei Pinchos states that the Rambam believed
that he himself was Moshiach.

the Ohr Hachaim Hakadosh in Parshas Re'eh writes that he himself is Moshiach.

And maybe they were supposed to be, had the generation been worthy. Also, believing that you are or potentially could be mashiach is different than proclaiming it and acting upon it.
Sadly, since they were niftar, it's now just an interesting anecdote in history.

shalhevet

Mon, May 28 2007, 2:46 am

Motek wrote:

stem wrote:

is different than proclaiming it and acting upon it.

Moshiach is supposed to act on it, as the Rambam delineates.

Where does the Rambam delineate it?

Quote:

stem wrote:

What did the Rambam do in action once he decided that he was mashiach?

I don't know. Maybe writing his Mishna Torah was his way of "compelling all Jews to follow in the ways of Hashem" - one of the things Moshiach does.

He wrote his Mishna Torah to teach halacha to Am Yisrael, just like the Tanaaim, the Amoraim, the Beis Yosef, the Chayye Adam, R' Shlomo Ganzfried and the Chofetz Chaim and countless others. Please don't lower the holy Rambam to the level that he taught Torah for the reason of bringing Moshiach.

shalhevet

Mon, May 28 2007, 4:09 am

hadasa wrote:

Why on earth would that be considered lowering?

I was taught - even in a non-Lubavitch school - that every Mitzvah a person does brings Moshiach closer. That includes teaching Halachah to Am Yisroel like all the great Tzaddikim of all generations. If the Rambam had that purpose in mind when teaching Torah, why should that diminish his greatness CH"V? Confused

Of course it's mamash motzi shem ra on the Rambam to even suggest he wrote his seforim not 100% lesheim shamayim. A tzaddik on such a level doesn't do a mitzva for the schar whether in this world or the next or for any other motive apart from ahavas Hashem.

Anyway, this whole discussion is ridiculous. There is nothing in any sources to suggest anything of the kind and its whole purpose is just to try and say that you want to believe that past Gedolim fitted into the mould that you have created.