how to come to terms with 13 y/o DD who wont help out!

amother

Thu, May 03 2012, 11:20 pm

you want to know how to be more accepting of her? well I was pretty much just like your dd.
I helped alot, but not a bit more than I was required to. I was not the odlest so my big sister did the usual oldest perfect helping thing. my personality was like your dd's, laid back and not noticing what needed to be done.
first of all, my big sis who helped so much now has issues from feeling overworked, and is resentful of all she did. I have no such issues, since I didnt feel like I had to help when I didnt want to. if I was going to feel upset by helping I just didnt help. I ran away and hid somewhere, like the boiler room, where noone could find me when the heaviest work needed to be done.

second, today I help alot when going home to my parents for yom tov, so no need to worry about her future.
third I am a great cook, and housewife, starting form the day I got married, (with the same laid back personality) so I did learn enough from helping to carry me through getting married and running my own home.
third, if you force her to help you will just aleinate her, and genrally strain your relationship, and it will not change her to become the model dd you expected.
you should ask your younger dd's for the little things you need help with, since they seem more capable, and your oldest dd will truly feel relived not having to do it all just b/c she is oldest. imagine your younger dd was the oldest, at this age she would be expected to do more, no?
ask for help according to personality not by age.

TranquilityAndPeace

Thu, May 03 2012, 11:32 pm

emhabanim wrote:

Your daughter is 13 and while she may look huge to you, she really is still a young child in many ways.

I am an Orthodox Jew. I hope you are too. Our Torah says that at 12 years old a girl is mature enough to marry, have children, and be responsible for her own fate in the World to Come.

While circumstances are definitely different in 2012 than they were many years ago, and we raise our 12 year olds to be economically dependent on parents, that does not change the essential fact that 12 year old girls are old enough to be responsible for their life, let alone lend a hand around her mother's house.

amother wrote:

I asked for help to deal with this in terms of me. Could y'all read the first 2 sentences of my original post? Did I mention anything about this being my dd's problem or responsibility.

Hi Op,

You're getting suggestions that don't answer your original question because most of us believe that the premise of your original question is misguided.

If you'd put up a post on imamother stating, "How can I come to terms with paying tuition with money that I stole from the bank" most of us would not help you figure out how to come to terms with your tainted money. Most of us would try to explain to you that you ought to return that money to the bank and stop stealing. I DO NOT MEAN TO EQUATE your situation with this random bank situation that just popped into my head; I am only trying to help you understand why you're getting the responses that you don't want within this thread.

Your daughter is legally an adult. God trusts her to obey all 613 commandments. A 12 year old girl who desecrates Shabbos (with warning and witnesses, etc) will be killed by Bais Din. She is capable of FAR MORE than you think she is capable of. Do her a favor: Help her develop her sense of responsibility. And responsibility begins in the home; it begins by obeying the parent who has done so much for you, and it begins by stepping up to the plate when mom is not feeling well.

And yes, I was the oldest, and I helped a lot. That's not an aspect of my childhood that I would have change, if I could go back in time.

amother

Thu, May 03 2012, 11:44 pm

Merrymom wrote:

OP, I would really disregard most of the answers here. Most of the people here are young mothers without teenagers, and those with teens have not yet married off their children. They do not realize how this ridiculous, "It was my decision to get pregnant, not hers" kind of attitude is responsible for raising lazy, self- centered, incompetent women. My daughter's school used to forbid giving homework on Thursday nights so that the girls can help their mothers. Now this practice has been abolished as apparently the only one helping out were my daughters. My daughters don't do one tenth of the work I do at home but I certainly have EXPECTATIONS of them. It is not their decision whether they will help or not. They are part of this family and have the benefits that come with it, as well as sharing in the responsibilities. I could get a cleaning woman, I really could. It is my decision not to because when I had one, all my kids became a bunch of dirty, messy, spoiled kids. I want them making their own bed every morning, picking up their clothing, putting away their plates, washing dishes, cleaning the table, making cookies for Shabbos. Are they scrubbing toilets, washing stoves, pots, or cleaning up a sibling's throw up? I don't think so. I do expect that when they get married however, they will be completely self sufficient and not be like a sibling of mine who I had to teach EVERYTHING to when she got married. She was clueless because she never had to do a single thing growing up and it was so much harder for her. Don't accept lazy behavior. Instead give her an allowance that is contigent on her doing her chores. If she gets part of it done then she should get a partial allowance, if she does it all then give her more. If her room is an impossible mess, put everything in garbage bags and tell her whatever isn't put away is going to go down into the basement or be given away because apparently she doesn't really care about it or need it. It is our responsibility as parents to teach or kids organization and cleanliness. I highly recommend that all you mothers get a copy of the show called Hoarders to see what happens when parents have no expectations of their children.

OP here-ok I did realize that there were many young mothers responding who were def "broygus" abt their difficulties with too much responsibility growing up. My DD is thank g-d not a hoarder but used to be. It took a few months and we cleaned up her room together (Me, my Dh and her). We recently moved. She's generally very neat now and feels very good about having such an organized room. I know all about hoarders because I do have some relatives who could be on the show. Anyway, my point is that I am also running that type of home where everyone needs to clear their plate from the table. if you use a mug it needs to be washed and put away, dirty clothes go in the hamper, NOT on the floor, all sports equipment left in the house and not in the shed or garage gets confiscated indefinitely (I have 3 boys)...And the list goes on. They don't have many chores but they do need to keep themselves clean and in order or consequences ensue. My daughter would rather do homework all night then help me cook in the kitchen. It's ok for now because she really doesn't like to so I don't make an issue of it. My original post was just because I'm feeling overly frustrated with this situation and I wish I was sameach where I'm at instead of upset with her lack of willingness to step up.

granolamom

Thu, May 03 2012, 11:48 pm

GreenEyes26 wrote:

amother wrote:

GreenEyes26 wrote:

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

granolamom wrote:

amother wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

Make a list of age appropriate household chores and ask her to pick a certain amount (based on how much time she has).

Explain to her that as she gets older, she gets more freedom and more responsibility. If she can't handle the responsibility, then she can't go out to her friends unsupervised. Since you are pregnant, tired and busy, that probably won't be too often.

OP here (what does OP stand for?)
she helps out with her regular chores (she has a few) but there's a great deal of impromptu tasks that come up and I can't list them before they happen. Last erev shabbos I was so nauseous that I couldn't make the chopped meat into meatballs so I asked her to do it. She said maybe later. She has done this before but wasn't in the mood. As far as more freedom I guess I'm not so ready to give her more--she doesn't always realize time so well and can stay outside too late without reminders.

Ok, I'm ready for the flaming:

I'm an oldest and I was very helpful, its my nature. that said, your pg is not your dd's problem or responsibility. she needs to contribute, yes. she needs to learn these skills, yes. but how 'giving' she is above and beyond, is not something you can demand. chessed has to come from within, it cannot be forced. your child is not your 'second set of hands' for impromptu tasks. its nice when you have a kid who is willing to be that for you, but imo its too much to demand. ok, to ask, but the asking has to be with the understanding that she has a right to say no (took me decades to learn to say no, I never knew I was allowed to do that)

My kids may say, "Is it okay if I do this later" or "I'm really not in the mood, do I have to" or "I'd really rather not, Mommy, I'm very tired, is it okay if I skip it this time" or similar. But they are not permited to just say "no" to a parent.

That goes hand in hand with DH and I making only reasonable requests of them.

Thanks, T&P. I was going to say the same thing but much more meanly Twisted Evil

What's to be mean about???? I asked for help to deal with this in terms of me. Could y'all read the first 2 sentences of my original post? Did I mention anything about this being my dd's problem or responsibility. It's just so much more difficult to deal with right now as I am not dealing with a full deck. I only ask in a way that it can be turned down because I do NOT want to force her to do anything that she doens't willingly wanna do. I just have to deal with her unwillingness to want to do just about anything. Last Friday she was invited to a neighbor who organized some activity and I was happy to let her go all day and of course it was my responsibility to take care of shabbos albeit with no extras. My kids are terrible eaters anyway so no need to cook fancy. Anyway, she has a lazier attitude I guess and doesn't pick up cues to well. She'll never say NO but she might say "later" or ask too many questions so I realize she'd rather not do it. What do y'all think I'm doing? Trying to be a slavedriver?

I'm sorry, OP. I meant I would have said what T&P replied to GranolaMom much more meanly. Not to your post.

oh please. I dont mean that a 13 yo dd should shout out 'no way mom!' when asked to help out. but if she's already contributing and being asked to do alot more than she's prepared to do there are very nice and acceptable ways to say no. you can come up with whatever phrase pleases you and let the child know its acceptable to use it when she really really feels that she is unable to give what is being asked in certain circumstances. you can even tell her, when I ask I need you to do. but when I preface with 'can you do me a favor' then you have the option of saying no (or whatever words you'd like her to use to mean the same thing)

amother

Thu, May 03 2012, 11:53 pm

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

emhabanim wrote:

Your daughter is 13 and while she may look huge to you, she really is still a young child in many ways.

amother wrote:

I asked for help to deal with this in terms of me. Could y'all read the first 2 sentences of my original post? Did I mention anything about this being my dd's problem or responsibility.

She does the bare minimum. Nothing comparable to desecrating shabbos (chas vichalilah) or your bank story ( I know it just popped in your head). She's not evil, but doesn't lend any extra help or pick up on cues (sick mommy, maybe I could help more). There were some suggestions of how to deal with her which may be helpful. She probably needs a lot more instructions and directions and I am currently not giving them to her. I know that at 12 she is responsible to keep kol hatorah kuloh but where does it say that a 12 year old is ready for marriage and children. I don't remeber ever learning that. (She def is not as she hasn't even developed yet. She's a late bloomer in more than one way I guess.)

granolamom

Thu, May 03 2012, 11:59 pm

amother wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

here's what I think, though many will likely disagree. you're upset about being upset with dd, not so much upset with dd. so. my thoughts are that you need more help than you're getting. and you need it from somewhere. where else can you get it from? can you do less? can some of the other kids offer more? can your dh help more? can you hire someone? its always hurtful when the people close to us dont step up in ways we want them to when we really need it.
you want to be more sameach with your dd? keep looking for her strengths and the ways in which she does help you out. at least she'd doing her homework independently! maybe she can help the younger ones with homework and free you up there.
I know its the kitchen help that's most needed, but what would you do if you didnt have her? you'd have to figure out how to manage. bring out the paper plates I say. and if you can't prepare certain dishes, don't. sandwiches and scrambled eggs for a few months never killed anyone. if the kids miss the good food, they can learn how to make it (or commit to helping out when you need it).

Shif

Fri, May 04 2012, 8:07 am

OP, I didn't read all of the posts, so I might be repeating what someone else suggested...
My kids are 8 and younger, and they all have jobs around the house. The reason is, we are a family, and part of being in a family is helping each other. If my kids don't feel like doing their "job", then I will do it- no problem. However, when they want me to take them somewhere or do something for them (outside of regular food preparation and basic caretaking- cutting apples don't count- she's 13!!), I am too tired b/c I used up all of my energy taking care of their job. So, I can't take them to a friends house, b/c I'm too tired...no shopping trip, cuz I'm too tired....you get the idea. All of this is done, ideally, without anger and frustration- as authentic as possible.
She is 13? she can cut her own apple (or at the least wash it herself and eat it whole) and make her own lunch- something I did from 9yrs old...

Shif

Fri, May 04 2012, 8:18 am

I also wanted to add to my post above....that when my "energy is drained" and I'm too tired, the kids have to put it back (the energy), by doing some of my chores (sweeping, mopping, etc).
Also, I give my kids allowance each week- regardless of whether or not they do their chores. If they don't do their chores, then I will either do it for them and have an "energy drain", or charge them for it (which comes out of their allowance). I don't give reminders to them either. We discussed what their jobs are when they need to be done by...if not- they have to put my energy back or pay me for it.
I follow "love and logic" as much as possible ( a parenting method ), and it works really well with kids (and spouses :-) ), when used consistently.

I agree with Merrymom above, kids need to learn to be responsible, helpful, and thoughtful, and we have to teach them. 13 is not too young to learn this behavior- neither is 9, or 8 or 6...Kids can begin to learn this behavior as soon as they can talk and think for themselves. My kids have been putting their dirty clothes in the hamper since they were 2. Whatever is appropriate for their age. 13 year olds can do plenty.

chani8

Fri, May 04 2012, 8:34 am

amother wrote:

something here that no one mentioned:

There is a book called "Laws of Nurture". Basically each person requires something else in order to feel loved. Some ppl need gifts, some ppl need to be serviced, some need touch etc...
I find my oldest always asks me to do things for her. Pour her a drink make her a sandwich .. it goes much more than what she is asking, these are small things that she needs in order to feel loved, and yes my younger kids don't ask that of me. I see when I nurture her, she gives back in return!

That being said, I give her "big jobs to do" it has to feel big to her, like a privilege. I will let her put the four yr old to bed. Bake cookies from beginning to end. Things like that and she will gladly do it!

I am so interested in this book. Is there some place online to read it? I can't buy it on kindle, unfortunately. Anyone know of online libraries?

chani8

Fri, May 04 2012, 8:49 am

I read a book by Adahan on personality types based on a scale. One of the scales referred to how a person can be a thinker or a doer. A thinker is called an N, I believe, and a doer, is an S. We can vary on which part of the scale we fit, but in general people lean one way or the other. We can all do S work, but for some people, it is very painful.

Your daughter may find it painful to do that work that you are asking her to do. I am heavily an N and I can come up with great ideas of how things should be and need to be, but practically speaking, to do the work is agony. I have lots of helpers, require full help from my kids and DH.

One of my children is very like me. I don't bother pushing him to do much. The other kids resent him for it, but I understand him. I hope he will just marry someone who will pick up his slack in that area and appreciate his talents and middos in other areas.

I married someone who is very domestic and does everything for me. And you know what he tells the kids, "Thank Mommy for planning such a great meal." That's acceptance.

But I will put in the disclaimer that I can do the work if I have to, but it takes me a lot of time. In fact, I organize my house to function with the least amount of work possible, with cleaning help for the down and dirty stuff. We don't fold, or make beds, and we make simple food. Wrinkle release on the dryer instead of ironing. Things like that.

Your daughter prefers homework? I totally get her.

I can't recall the name of the book. Anyone here know which one I'm talking about? Not the numbers one, the letters one.

Chayalle

Fri, May 04 2012, 9:43 am

I haven't read the whole thread - just the first page - I'll get to the rest. As the mother of a 13 year old, I'm surprised by some of the posts here, and I'll probably get lots of disagreement here, but....

TAKING CARE OF YOUR HOME IS YOUR JOB. Not hers. You made the choice to get married. You made the choice to have kids, and be pg, and all else that comes with it. When you gave birth to her 13 years ago, you made the commitment to being her mother and taking care of her needs, as appropriate.

Her helping out is for HER benefit not yours - that is, it's to teach her to be responsible and capable so that she can manage her own home in the future B"EH. It's not so that you can manage yours.

When the focus is on you and your need for help, resentment breeds. Yes your other kids may have more helpful or less resentful natures, whatever, that doesn't matter - she has a different personality and it's your job to help her with her growth - not the other way around.

She still wants to feel your mothering and nurturing and caring - that's normal. If it expresses itself in her feeling good when you make her lunch or cut her fruit, then it's great that she is telling you what makes her feel loved and cared for. (BTW I prepare my 13 year old's lunch every day too. And yes, - she helps me in many ways - because she WANTS to.) Some teenagers don't tell their mothers what their emotional needs are and that's far less healthy.

In terms of helping - I'm the mother in my home. I do the best I can. If no one helps out, and my best is peanut butter sandwiches for dinner, than (theoretically) that's what they'd get. It's their choice if they want to help out (which they do) so we can upgrade to better stuff. If they want clean laundry, they help out so we can get there.....

You can have a discussion with her. Should Mommy do everything without help? Is that your plan for your future, or will you enlist your kids help B"EH when you are a Mommy? Do you want things in the house to be done only to the extent that Mommy can do it herself, or is it worthwhile to be a team so that we can do more (like chocolate chip cookies, etc...)?

Kids should help out because they LIKE to, because they see the direct benefit to themselves by doing so. Because they feel pride in the home they are part of. Not because it's shoved at them in the form of a chore list.

amother

Fri, May 04 2012, 10:07 am

amother wrote:
something here that no one mentioned:

There is a book called "Laws of Nurture". Basically each person requires something else in order to feel loved. Some ppl need gifts, some ppl need to be serviced, some need touch etc...
I find my oldest always asks me to do things for her. Pour her a drink make her a sandwich .. it goes much more than what she is asking, these are small things that she needs in order to feel loved, and yes my younger kids don't ask that of me. I see when I nurture her, she gives back in return!

That being said, I give her "big jobs to do" it has to feel big to her, like a privilege. I will let her put the four yr old to bed. Bake cookies from beginning to end. Things like that and she will gladly do it!

I am so interested in this book. Is there some place online to read it? I can't buy it on kindle, unfortunately. Anyone know of online libraries?

its called the 5 love languages, do a google you will find it, its based on this theory

Chayalle

Fri, May 04 2012, 10:41 am

amother wrote:

I've also heard of this book and would love to read it. I totally agree with every word of this post. Don't know why you are amother - you should sign your name and take credit for this!

Chayalle

Fri, May 04 2012, 10:45 am

chani8 wrote:

Miriam Adahan has two personality books, based on two personality type systems:

I think the one you are talking about is Appreciating People (including yourself) - based on the Briggs Myers system. I haven't read that one because it's out of print and is a fortune to buy.

The second is Awareness, based on the Anneagram. I read that one and loved it. Big eye opener to read about your kids' personality and understand and accept them (and yourself! and your spouse!)

Chayalle

Fri, May 04 2012, 10:51 am

Shif wrote:

This I agree with - a mother can only do so much - so a child can learn to help out, for their own benefit, because their own needs will be met much better if they pitch in. That's part of teamwork and responsibilty.

Shif wrote:

She is 13? she can cut her own apple (or at the least wash it herself and eat it whole) and make her own lunch- something I did from 9yrs old...

Here's where I disagree. If this is what makes this child feel loved, let her pick up some other area of jobs so that you can give her this nurturing that makes her feel good.

When parenting, we need to take our child's individual needs and personality into account. A one-size-fits-all approach...has a good chance of not "fitting".