How to tell your neighbor no

Shana_H

Tue, Nov 12 2013, 12:11 pm

smss wrote:

Shana_H wrote:

chocolate chips wrote:

oliveoil wrote:

Shana_H wrote:

amother wrote:

My kids are grown now, but I still recall a "friend" who would call me two or three times a week: "Hi, what are you doing today?" And I would answer without thinking: "Nothing special." So she would say, "Good, so I will drop off my kids, because I have some shopping to do....." I finally learned to say, I am busy... I guess I always hoped if I said nothing special, she would invite me to join her on some shopping spree, but NO, she just needed to dump her kids on me. When I finally realized this was not a "friend," I became assertive and after a while, she got the message. But this was many years ago and it still bothers me how I was stepped on so badly for so long....

Many, many years ago when my kids were small, I only had the two younger ones home, my "friend" who didn't drive back then, called Erev Pessach to ask me to take her to the store for a few things, as I needed a some vegies I said yes, We split up when we got to the store, I put my infant seat in the back of the wagon and my two year old sat up in the front, I gathered my vegies and went to the checkout, I waited about 15 minutes, my "Friend" rolled up with an overflowing wagon, containing, meat, dairy, vegies, fruits, cases of water, juices, soda, cases of toilet paper, paper towels, cleaning supplies, tin foil, tin pans, and lots more too, she came up behind me, pushed her wagon close to me and walked around to the front of the register, I put my vegies on the counter and pulled out my ATM Bank Debit Card which the cashier took, I picked up my one bag and walked away, my "Friend" said in a loud voice, "what about your other wagon?" I responded with, "What other wagon?" "That one behind you," she said, "it's Erev Pessach, I forgot my wallet at home, put my wagon on your card!" My jaw hit the floor, I walked out to my car and I DROVE AWAY! We haven't spoken in TEN years, tho we see each other often!

I am SPEECHLESS! shock

Me too!
OMG my mouth literally just dropped to the floor...people DO that?!!?!?!?

It is funny how if I have to call my landlord to borrow something or ask a question more than once in a week I feel bad, do these people honestly not realize what they are doing?

I think people like that are completely clueless!
P.S Her husband was and still is a very successful DR in Private practice, he doesn't take many health insurances coz she claims the pay out is not good enough, so he's basically a cash only business!

I am so confused, then. are you SURE she was actually asking you to pay for her groceries? not just asking you to put it on your card b/c she forgot her wallet, and she'd pay you back? if they are NOT poor?

this story just doesn't make sense....

You are too sweet! Yes I'm sure! I'm not the only one she's done this to!, She has a clothes and shoe shopping addiction, and her husband put her on an allowance, she uses the grocery money to buy shoes, and then can't pay for the milk, bread, and eggs, it's really rather sad.

naturalmom5

Tue, Nov 12 2013, 12:19 pm

Barbara wrote:

amother wrote:

My upstairs neighbor (in apartment building) is constantly asking for favors. Mostly small things but occasionally big things. 1/2 of the time she doesn't return what she borrows and she makes you feel really guilty for saying no even when she asks big favors.
I.e. she just asked me if she could leave an intercom in my house while she goes out for 2 hours . IMO there is no such a thing as just leaving an intercom, it is babysitting. She has 5 kids including a baby who doesn't sleep through the night. I am post partum and exhausted so I said no and she starts giving me a speech about she doesn't know what to do and who she will find.
I kind of want to be open and give her a piece of my mind about boundries but don't want to make an enemy . Any ideas?

She wanted you to listen on an intercom for two hours while her 5 children, including a baby, were alone in her apartment? YIKES!!!

If you want to make an enemy, you could say "It is completely unsafe to leave 5 young children alone for two hours, with or without an intercom. I'll be calling CPS just about now." Because lets be honest. Chas v'shalom something happens in the building (like her non-sleeping kids set it on fire because no one is watching them), you're vamoosing with your baby (and older kids, if any), not running upstairs to rescue her kids.

But I don't recommend that.

So you say, "I can't do it." Why can't you do it? I really need to go out. "I do sympathize with how difficult it is to find babysitters, but I can't do it." But you're home, and all you have to do is listen on the intercom. "It's just not possible. I do hope you can find a babysitter."

I was going to say this, but Barbara beat me to it .
But , I'm not as nice as Barbara. I would straight out tell her that she is asking me to be an accomplice to a crime .
Where I live you are required by law to notify DYFS of children being left in a dangerous situation

sneakermom

Tue, Nov 12 2013, 12:22 pm

The neighbor you are describing seems to have a "needy" personality issue.

Such people were not adequately nurtured as babies and kids. They crave deep emotional nurturing. They make you feel like they want you to nurse them. And nurse them. And nurse them. And when the milk is dried out. Nurse them again. They feel very deprived emotionally and are hard to fill. So they always push further than you can realistically give them.

Their lack of boundaries to me seems almost like a baby that wants to go back into the womb. They keep coming into your space and wanting to stay!

And ultimately they get rejected over and over just as they probably were as a young child. Because it is inconceivable that anyone could put up with that.

It's not your problem that she is that way. But it's actually a favor to show her boundaries because you are modeling for her appropriate boundaries.

So when she begins to ask you about babysitting via intercom you just say, "I know you want this very badly, but my husband doesn't let me do that". Or "I know it's really hard for you when I say no, but I'm not up to it". And no matter how much she argues you say. "I'm not up to it". That's it.

The more you show clear boundaries the less she will harass you. Good luck!

smss

Tue, Nov 12 2013, 12:23 pm

Shana_H wrote:

smss wrote:

Shana_H wrote:

chocolate chips wrote:

oliveoil wrote:

Shana_H wrote:

amother wrote:

I am SPEECHLESS! shock

oh my! wow! I guess I'm just too naive to believe someone could actually have that kind of gall... shock

Shana_H

Tue, Nov 12 2013, 12:24 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

Barbara wrote:

amother wrote:

Here in NJ I think they just raised the age to 13, for the leaving of a child home alone, I think the OP lives elsewhere, I wonder what the law is there.

mummiedearest

Tue, Nov 12 2013, 12:25 pm

sneakermom wrote:

actually, showing clear boundaries would be saying, "I'm not going to do that, and it's inappropriate for you to request it." what you suggest sounds like her requests are ok, you just aren't able to this time. there's no real boundary-setting there.

Butterfly

Tue, Nov 12 2013, 12:26 pm

This thread really tensed me up! IMHO both the OP and the neighbor have shown lack of responsibility, risking the welfare of young innocent children.

A mother leaving small children alone in a home without supervision for such a long period of time?!
OP, by your accepting to "monitor" and not supervising in person, you are just as guilty as her.
That is totally illegal, dangerous and utterly irresponsible.

An intercom cannot detect when someone is choking on a food that a kid might snack on!
An intercom does not smell fire. Kids like to explore and play with matches, especially when adults aren't around.
An intercom doesn't prevent young mischievous kids from doing other dangerous things in the house that an "intercom" doesn't see!

I blame the OP just as well for accepting. If you couldn't say no, you should have offered that she bring all the kids to your home where you can supervise personally.
And just because it worked out safe in the end B'H, (this time) doesn't make it right a bit!!

FranticFrummie

Tue, Nov 12 2013, 12:34 pm

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I just wanted to jump in and say that sometimes I need to ask for favors. I have a good friend, and if she can do the favor and it's convenient for her, she will. I always find a way to do something nice back for her.

There are times that she will say "I don't want to commit to that. It would be better if you could find someone else." (for example, a ride to a doctor's appointment)

She has awesome boundaries, and I LOVE her for it! She makes me feel so comfortable asking, and I never have to feel like she's doing something just because she's afraid to say no to me. I have immense respect for her, and I've even thanked her for her honesty.

Saying "No" is not always the end of the world. In my case, it led to a really great friendship.

Emotional

Tue, Nov 12 2013, 1:55 pm

I seem to remember this concept being addressed in another thread some months back, but it's worth mentioning here as well.
It's not always okay to ask.
There are people who have no busha in asking for favors that go over the top. They figure there's no harm in asking. Well yes, there is harm. Because sometimes a person who is already pulled in too many directions doesn't want to have to justify not wanting to take on another obligation. Asking puts them on the spot. And for a person who really should be saying no, but is not assertive enough to do so, her whole family loses out.

Last edited by Emotional on Tue, Nov 12 2013, 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

Emotional

Tue, Nov 12 2013, 1:57 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

But that's just it! It's a pleasure for someone to do chessed for a person like you. You don't push limits, you respect when you're told no, and you make an effort to reciprocate. That's different.

Shana_H

Tue, Nov 12 2013, 1:59 pm

Emotional wrote:

I seem to remember this concept being addressed in another thread some months back, but it's worth mentioning here as well.
It's not always okay to ask.
There are people who have no busha in asking for favors that go over the top. They figure there's no harm in asking. Well yes, there harm. Because sometimes a person who is already pulled in too many directions doesn't want to have to justify not wanting to take on another obligation. Asking puts them on the spot. And for a person who really should be saying no, but is not assertive enough to do so, her whole family loses out.

This was so me! Stretched to my outer most limits! I felt that by saying "yes" to everyone's requests I'd become a valuable member of my community!

phillymom

Tue, Nov 12 2013, 2:39 pm

Shana_H wrote:

Emotional wrote:

I seem to remember this concept being addressed in another thread some months back, but it's worth mentioning here as well.
It's not always okay to ask.
There are people who have no busha in asking for favors that go over the top. They figure there's no harm in asking. Well yes, there harm. Because sometimes a person who is already pulled in too many directions doesn't want to have to justify not wanting to take on another obligation. Asking puts them on the spot. And for a person who really should be saying no, but is not assertive enough to do so, her whole family loses out.

This was so me! Stretched to my outer most limits! I felt that by saying "yes" to everyone's requests I'd become a valuable member of my community!

I agree this is good advice for the normal women out there, as a reminder to make sure we're not imposing on others, especially is they are the type to have hard time saying no. (I have this dynamic with my own mother all the time!-the need to give a 5 minute introduction before I can even think of asking for a slightly large favor).

THe OP is discussing someone who is hopelessly lacking self awareness and would never get this.

OP, it takes two to tango. Hashem gave you this specific neighbor in your life for you to stretch your middos with. Making boundaries for yourself sounds like a struggle, but you need to take responsibility for your part in this unhealthy dance. And that means finding inner strength to say no, in whatever manner mentioned in this thread or otherwise works for you.

By the way, I personally would go for dealing with it yourself first. Using your DH through her DH should be a last resort due to the potential shalom bayis problems it can cause. IMHO

imasinger

Tue, Nov 12 2013, 2:45 pm

Emotional wrote:

I think I had been the one to say it never hurts to ask.

Let me rephrase.

As long as you understand boundaries, don't ask if it is clearly chutzpadik or insensitive (like asking a favor when it is obviously going to be an imposition), and know how to take "no" for an answer the FIRST time it is said, then it never hurts to ask.

ESB

Tue, Nov 12 2013, 2:54 pm

I did not read the whole thread, but those who don't have such kind of neighbors you cant say hashem gave you such a neighbor so you can work on your middos.

My neighbor is like this as well, she would ask for garbage bags, pampers, chicken bottoms and never give it back. I learned to say no, I learned to say you can go to the grocery, you can also take along your one kid. I am not your grocery. She would sometimes say you don't have garbage bags, how come? Id say I do but its not for you. If you don't start saying no you become the grocery, healthfood store, drug store, and butcher. You are allowed to stick up for yourself.

ora_43

Tue, Nov 12 2013, 5:02 pm

Butterfly and FranticFrummie and sneakermom (and others) all have really good points.

OP, it sounds like you're too concerned that your neighbor might think you're not being nice. You need to give yourself time to think about what's actually the right thing to do. It's not actually nice to help your neighbor leave her kids alone, or to play into her weird mental games, or to leave yourself tired out and secretly resentful.

(Regarding leaving kids alone - it may be legal for her to leave the older children alone, depending on their ages, but it's probably not legal to leave younger children with them.)

I forget who mentioned the idea of giving yourself a delay, but I really like that idea. If you can't say "no" when you know you need to say "no," could you say "I need to check my schedule," or "give me just a minute to check something," whatever, and then use that time to steel yourself up to say, "Sorry, I just can't right now"?

And since you mentioned where you live - she's Israeli. She can take it.

I don't like to stereotype about "aggressive Israelis," especially since so many of my Israeli neighbors are much more sweet and aidel than myself (but then, I can be rather... uhhh... "assertive," for an American). But there have got to be plenty of other neighbors who would reject her flat-out if not tell her off. I know that if someone knocked on my door for five minutes (!!) when I had a new baby (!!!) just to ask me again to do something I'd already said "no" to - I would flip. I would be posting "how not to slap your neighbor."

I'm not saying that's the right response, I'm just saying, she's almost certainly heard worse than "no" in the past. You're not going to crush her spirits or offend her by turning her down, really (and in the worst case scenario, I'm wrong and you do offend her and she stops talking to you as often - is that a problem? I think not).