Apikorsos Ideologies in a Post

PinkFridge

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 10:11 am

greenfire wrote:

I think the problem is too many people follow things blindly without actually knowing what is and what is not halacha ... minhagim vary by sect & sometimes even within sects - to the right or to the left

quite often you even hear 'I'll ask my dh' - um what about learning instead of assuming

Though to be fair if it's a matter of minhag then one does usually go by the husband.

5mom

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 10:18 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Though to be fair if it's a matter of minhag then one does usually go by the husband.

Yes, but for that you need to know what is minhag, what is halacha and what is a social norm. I have found that many women here really don't know, and they are in serious danger of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

marina

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 10:20 am

When I visit this site I often read about things that weaken my faith in Judaism.

People supporting molesters. Husbands humiliating their wives. Rabbis harming instead of helping. Bigotry, dishonesty, entitlement. Addictions, violence,
Child abuse, marital rape. Educational abuse. Ignorance as I've never seen before. Whole communities condemned by their leaders to a life of poverty, often through no fault of their own.

Just today I'm reading about outrageous body violations in the mikvah. And about casual domestic violence- within the first five minutes of logging on today.

So, you know, if I'm expected to read all these posts and still stay strong in my connection with Judaism, you can all read a thread about a woman who passes the baby during nidda and skips some bedikos.

tichellady

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 11:12 am

marina wrote:

Couldn't have said it better myself!

tichellady

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 11:15 am

amother wrote:

Op, so glad to see this post. I am constantly surprised to see how many people have the attitude to which you refer. what I don't understand is what is keeping these people religious at all. Being that so many don't seem to believe in the very basics of Judaism, that the Torah is G-d's word and unchangeable, why are they keeping it?
Judaism is not exactly an easy religion to keep and I can't understand why someone believes they can change halachos according to there stress level or today's society would be keeping anything. Confused

Would you like them to stop keeping everything because there are things they find challenging??? Honestly, I don't understand your attitude. You think that if someone has some doubts and questions they should just drop everything.

imorethanamother

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 11:19 am

marina wrote:

See, I used to be like this too. And then I realized that I was choosing to be unhappy. There are an equal (if not greater) amount of religious people doing good and wonderful things in the world. I choose to try to make myself better and follow the good instead of miring myself in the misdeeds of others.

Are there people who aren't perfect in every way who post on imamother? Sure. Instructing people with kindness and being patient and sweet will leave a much more lasting legacy than dismissing entire swaths of people for not being as enlightened as we think they should be.

Seas

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 11:29 am

tichellady wrote:

What she's saying is if you don't submit to the ultimate authority of the Torah, what's the point at all?

Either you believe - and this is the ABC of Judaism - that the entire Torah (including all of Chazal) is min hashamyim and whatever the SA commands us (according to the interpretation of the chachmei hamesorah) is the Will of Hashem. In which case you might struggle to keep mitzvos (like everyone has nisyonos) but you still know right from wrong.

Or you decide that ch"v everyone can make their own rules and form their own relationship with Hashem (total apikorsus), in which case why keep anything at all?

Yael wrote:

Exactly what pause wrote.

If you come across a post that is condoning breaking halacha (not simply a more lenient viewpoint) please report it or send a pm to myself or a mod.

But where do you set the line between 'breaking halacha' and a 'more lenient viewpoint'? Shouldn't there be halachic norms as accepted by all mainstream poskim? If someone comes up with a 'heter' to use a smartphone on Shabbos, does that make it a valid viewpoint simply because he calls himself Rabbi (which BTW is an entirely un-policed title)? Can just about anyone go against centuries of halachic norms and have his (and unfortunately nowadays it's sometimes 'her') opinion counted as a valid viewpoint?

@Marina,

I'm sorry but your argument is totally ridiculous. How do you make the leap from 'some Jews are bad' to questioning the veracity of the Torah?

marina

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 11:41 am

imorethanamother wrote:

Right. That's why it's not a big deal to read about women who don't comply with Halacha as well as others do. Because you can choose to make yourself better and follow the good and instruct people with kindness and be patient and sweet, all the things you wrote.

So when people read about a woman who doesn't do the first bedika, perhaps they can "follow the good instead of miring themselves in the misdeeds of others."

Last edited by marina on Wed, Jan 27 2016, 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total

marina

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 11:43 am

Seas wrote:

You've never questioned the value of a religion based on the behavior of some fraction of its followers? Really?

marina

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 11:57 am

Quote:

Also Seas, this is precisely the kind of thinking that sweeps people off the derech at the first sign of doubts.

One day you might realize that no, not everything every meforesh and gadol wrote is the will of hashem. Sometimes it is just reflective of the time they wrote it in or the social norms around them or whatever. Or it's just wrong and no way could God have intended that horrible outcome. And then, for you, there will be no point and you'll have to drop it all.

Others who are not so black and white, may still find reason and explanations for keeping the Torah to whatever extent they do, but people who don't see shades of gray will all be eating cheeseburgers on Yom Kippur. . I see it happen all the time.

Seas

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 12:05 pm

marina wrote:

You've never questioned the value of a religion based on the behavior of some fraction of its followers? Really?

That depends on whether that behavior is done as a result of the religion.

Take for example Islam - the terrorism is committed as a direct result of their religion so yes, it reflects badly upon it. (This is moot as I anyway know all other religions are false, but just to address your question).

Seas

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 12:08 pm

marina wrote:

Perhaps not 'every meforesh and gadol' (though even saying this is already dangerous), but certainly every word of Chazal and the chachmei hamesorah. This is a basic tenet of Judaism and one who doesn't believe this isn't 'at risk' of going OTD but rather OTD already (in areas of faith - which is the foundation upon which rests the entire structure).

tichellady

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 12:30 pm

People are using the term apikoros incorrectly here. Someone who has doubts, challenges, and sins is not an apikoros. They are just human. Those of you who say you never question anything- that's very nice, but to be honest I don't think that makes you better than those who deal with questions and still choose to do Mitvzot. I also hope that you are not parents or teachers- because good luck to the Jewish people if you tell people who have questions and doubts that they are now otd and should just stop keeping the Torah since they are not sure about everything. There goes our nation of THINKING individuals.

I think that people on this site have a much harder time when people acknowledge ritual sin ( not keeping kosher, niddah, etc) as opposed to interpersonal sin or community sin. this has been a Jewish problem for ages, the nevim all complain about the Jews only caring about the rituals ( in their case it was about karbonot) while neglecting the poor and the vulnerable and creating a corrupt society. For those of you so upset by marina's comment just read some of navi and you will see that she is right on target. Our community does a lot of things terribly wrong and you should be as disgusted ( or way more) to hear of an agunah who is neglected by the community while her husband gets to live his life or a family whose child can't get into a Jewish school than you are when you hear that someone missed a bedikah and still went to the Mikvah.

tichellady

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 12:41 pm

Seas wrote:

And what about the Jewish Israeli terrorists? I assume they can find all sorts of twisted Torah rationalizations for why they should kill Muslim Palestinian children. do you know that Jewish slaveownera in the US used the Torah to defend enslaving so many men and women from Africa. A religious text can be used to make all sorts of crazy points. The danger comes from people assuming that their interpretations are Godly when they are in fact just interpretations.

pause

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 3:19 pm

I don't understand why we are debating this. We all know there are certain non-negotiables. When someone posts about breaking a law in a nonchalant manner, THAT IMO doesn't belong here.

No heter, no lenient opinion, and no different interpretation of halacha will allow a woman to tovel on the seventh day if she had not done at least one bedika before shkiah. And the flippant attitude with which a poster responded that she does her best and if it's past shkiah then too bad is what (I believe) prompted the OP's post.

The whole discussion about rationalizing aveiros is totally besides the point.

UQT

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 4:28 pm

Thank you Pause. My point is that if someone writes about an abusive husband I don't say, gee let me abuse my husband it seems that it's OK for Jews. But if a few people say, let this halacha slide - I or someone who is new to the laws - newlywed, BT may think that they understood the rules wrong and its' OK for me to do it. That should not happen from a frum website.