Apikorsos Ideologies in a Post

boymom

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 7:50 pm

I think two of the problems are:
1- chareidi vs. non chareidi - one sect can be taught that xyz is an absolute non negotiable halachah, and a different sect can be taught that xyz is a minhag in some communities. I think there's a big discrepancy in the way different sects of Judaism are taught halachah.( I think this also has a major impact on hashkofah issues)

2- some women on here think that Torah is only the five chumashim. any other jewish sefer is just a book written by some rabbis. they don't realize that any halachah in "nach" is just as halachah as anything written in the chumash.
what they also don't realize is that chumash is only HALF of the torah. the other half is Mishnah/gemarah, which we call Torah shebal peh. And mishayos and gemarah were written not too long ago buy a bunch of , you got it - rabbis. so when you choose to ignore a halachah taken from gemorah, then bear in mind- it's the same torah we got at Har Sinai.

amother

Brown

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 8:42 pm

Thank you op for this thread! I'm glad I'm not the only one on this site thinking that way!
There were many times already I have been thinking that this site should be called "for jewish women " and NOT "for frum jewish woman". Your post is exactly what I would write and hats off to you for posting under your screen name.
Thank you!

amother

Brown

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 8:44 pm

boymom wrote:

THIS!!

Maya

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 8:49 pm

boymom wrote:

2- some women on here think that Torah is only the five chumashim. any other jewish sefer is just a book written by some rabbis. they don't realize that any halachah in "nach" is just as halachah as anything written in the chumash.
what they also don't realize is that chumash is only HALF of the torah. the other half is Mishnah/gemarah, which we call Torah shebal peh. And mishayos and gemarah were written not too long ago buy a bunch of , you got it - rabbis. so when you choose to ignore a halachah taken from gemorah, then bear in mind- it's the same torah we got at Har Sinai.

Have you ever come across a post on this site which stated the bolded?

pause

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 8:51 pm

Maya wrote:

Have you ever come across a post on this site which stated the bolded?

I have come across plenty posts where halacha is taken at face value of what it says in the Torah and any interpretations we have from Torah shebal peh were mocked as being man-made and thought up by Rabbis.

Maya

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 8:53 pm

pause wrote:

Interesting, I've never seen. I must not be reading the right threads Smile

tichellady

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 8:55 pm

UQT wrote:

Thank you Pause. My point is that if someone writes about an abusive husband I don't say, gee let me abuse my husband it seems that it's OK for Jews. But if a few people say, let this halacha slide - I or someone who is new to the laws - newlywed, BT may think that they understood the rules wrong and its' OK for me to do it. That should not happen from a frum website.

I don't see how this could happen unless the person doesn't actually acknowledge that she breaks Halacha but makes it sounds like the Halacha is optional , which I have not seen on this site. People own up to sinning in the very few posts I have read where someone mentions they don't follow halakaha

pause

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 9:01 pm

tichellady wrote:

This is the post I was referring to:

Quote:

What I would do, and have done, is make the hefsek whenever I remember, even if after shkiah, and just go on as usual. Why do other people need to be involved? Especially if your dh doesn't believe in the nitty gritty details.
I try my best. Can't be perfect at everything, especially things as stressful as this.

Not owning up to sinning. Making it sound like halacha is optional.

boymom

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 9:22 pm

Maya wrote:

Have you ever come across a post on this site which stated the bolded?

obviously no one said "I only believe in chumash". what I did see plenty of times, is - a poster would quote something from the gemarah, and another poster will say, "well your only quoting from rabbis. show me where it says in the torah"

to extend on this, when people have the issue with rabbinical halachos, they don't know where to draw the line. they put all jewish rabbis into one big cholent pot. I can quote some posters saying "well not according to my torah", and it wasn't during a discussion of the driving ban or shaving. that has diff torahs, I agree. some things have ONE torah.
and I hate the "shiva panim batorah" attitude . that saying doesn't apply to an actual halacha. it applies to the details of the halachah or the translations of words, etc. what we'd call 'meforshim'. 70 meforshim discussing the nuances of the specific halachah . but halachah remains halachah from the same torah.

and another common response - "who gave the rabbis the authority to rule". to be honest, moshe rabbeinu did. he was the one that set up the whole dayan thing. so yes, your rav or dayan can give you heterim. some people here have very explicitly said "how can a rav make something muttar for you. are they g-d?" no they aren't g-d. but g-d sent them to interpret his rulings in the best way possible.

tichellady

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 9:40 pm

boymom wrote:

That's not true. Some rabbinic laws are takanas to fix a societal issue or to protect a halakaha that is not being kept properly. Much of niddah is actually chumros that bnot yisroel accepted upon themselves, it is not Torah from Moshe at Sinai. I am not saying that observing these things is optional but then there are different levels and not everything is the same. A rabbi can be more lenient about certain laws than others depending on the origin source. There are Also debates in the Gemara about whether something is Torah from Moshe at Sinai or a later takana- so it's not all set in stone.

pause

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 9:45 pm

amother wrote:

I'm that poster. This is totally owning up. By saying "I try my best," it's implied that I know it's halacha and try to do it but can't always succeed.

I'm not looking to make this personal. However, I can't let this pass.

By saying "why do other people need to be involved?" you are insinuating that rabbis have no place in this matter. By advising someone else to "just go on as usual" you are implying that it's an option for others to consider. "not believing in the nitty gritty details" is the exact point the OP is trying to make. You don't indicate in any way that you know that what you are doing is wrong.

amother

Jade

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 9:52 pm

pause wrote:

So which is better, to drop it all as the OP was feeling like doing, especially since her husband doesn't believe in anything and wouldn't care if she lets it go, or be "over" on this one part of the halacha this one time and just continue doing it the right way from that point forward? For me, the latter is preferable. Maybe it isn't so for you.

I'm in no way saying that what I have done is okay. I'm just saying that sometimes, I am "over" on a halacha one time for psychological reasons, so that I may continue doing the rest of the rituals instead of just dropping it all. Anyway, whatever. I'm done defending this. You do what's right for you and I'll do what's right for me, and if you can't handle reading this on this site, figure something out for yourself.

pause

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 9:57 pm

amother wrote:

Again, rationalizing an aveira is not something that should be done on this site. And that's what the OP is talking about. Whether it's right or wrong for you is really not the point here.

And if you can't handle abiding by the rules of this site, figure something out for yourself.

boymom

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 10:04 pm

tichellady wrote:

as a side point, you would be better off starting your post with the words "and to extend on your point" instead of saying "that's not true", because nothing in your post negates what I posted. you only added to it and clarified the gemarah point. thank you.
I felt that I had to mention it because it's quite insulting when someone tells you you're a liar for no reason. at least if my post was untrue, I was expecting to see you post something contradicting to mine. and even then , it's my post against yours. who's to say who is true or untrue.

amother

Jade

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 10:07 pm

pause wrote:

All the people posting about affairs they have or whatever else they're doing wrong are violating the rules of this forum? I've never seen any consequences to those posts.

pause

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 10:14 pm

amother wrote:

All the people posting about affairs they have or whatever else they're doing wrong are violating the rules of this forum? I've never seen any consequences to those posts.

Yes, I believe they are violating the rules of the forum.

As for consequences, well, this is not nursery where you get put in the corner. If someone reports the post, the moderators get to decide what to do about it.

amother

Jade

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 10:17 pm

pause wrote:

I meant that it never dawned upon anyone to report THOSE posts even if they were against the rules, why all this up in arms over my post?
Not that it matters to me either way. Rules are rules, right?

tichellady

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 11:07 pm

[quote="boymom"]as a side point, you would be better off starting your post with the words "and to extend on your point" instead of saying "that's not true", because nothing in your post negates what I posted. you only added to it and clarified the gemarah point. thank you.
I felt that I had to mention it because it's quite insulting when someone tells you you're a liar for no reason. at least if my post was untrue, I was expecting to see you post something contradicting to mine. and even then , it's my post against yours. who's to say who is true or untrue.[/quote

I am sorry if I was unclear or offensive. I meant it's not true that it's all the same Torah we got at Sinai- halakaha has developed with time and there are different levels - daireta, de rabbanan that is takana, halakha Moshe me Sinai ( but not actually written in the text of the Torah), minhag yisroel, etc. that's what I found untrue about your post because it's not all the same! I think it's a really important point.

If it was all the same there wouldn't be koolahs from rabbis about halakha and there wouldn't be such difference of opinion about the status of certain mitvzot ( like hair covering, is it a minhag yisroel, it is a halakha Moshe msinai etc, because that affects how you deal with it today).