Emulate this way of Serving our Husbands?

amother

Gold

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 10:17 am

This thread is in reference to an Ami story that I read this week and got me thinking.

This is not about the people in the story, especially as we don't know who they are and any real details. Instead this is a reflection on the moral the writer is trying to bring out.

I will quote from the story:
My mother did everything for my father, He didn't eat a morsel of food that she didn't place carefully on his plate. Every single drink he desired, it was she who placed it before him with loving care. But when my father heard that yout health was in jeopardy, it was he who urged her to accompany you. It was difficult for him. It required a lot of mesiras nefesh on his part.

This is not the first time I've seen a woman written up about and how she served her husband day and night.

I can't wrap my head around this.

I'm trying to think if I'm a feminist or something, that this part is bothering me so much.
But I don't think I am.

I grew up with my father making my mother a coffee every single morning. And when we sat down Pesach to the Seder, my mother having worked so hard, my father only allowed the kids to serve. My home was very old school and my mother did not serve my father every morsel of food. He would actually serve her sometimes.

Why would a man even want his wife to serve him every morsel of food. I honestly doubt this man, being written about, would appreciate this being written about him. This woman was a mother of a huge family, so she was pregnant many times. I can't imagine a husband wanting his pregnant wife to serve him his every whim, when he's perfectly able bodied and should probably be serving her in that stage.

I will assume that this writer exaggerated when she wrote that this husband didn't eat a morsel of food that his wife didn't place on his plate. It cerainly sounds more like a slave-master relationship. This is definitely not something I would want to or be able to emulate, and I respect my husband to the sky. Am I wrong? Maybe because it's a different world, where women work, and with all these abuse stories, I'm sensitive to anything that just remotely makes the woman seem like the slave?

Mesiras Nefesh is a strong term to use. This story happened Pesach time, So I can definitely say it was Mesiras Nefesh on the husband's part. But not because of what the writer is saying with him not being able to be served, but because it must have been very hard for him staying home with a bunch of kids and making Pesach. That is Mesiras Nefesh.

Would love to hear your thoughts.

amother

Aubergine

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 10:27 am

It's a generational thing, I think.

My husband helps tremendously, despite that he works in an office while I work from home for much less hours. He cooks, cleans, does laundry, watches the kids- whatever I ask him to do (not all in one day lol).
His parents are different. His father solely supports the family, and nicely. His parents have a partnership: the husband brings home the money, and supports the wife in high style, and the wife does everything except maybe taking out the garbage. Seems to work for them.

treestump

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 10:30 am

This sounds like a very unhealthy relationship.

I had a teacher in seminary who urged us to be like this, that this is the epitome of an eishes chayil. It was very disturbing for me and most girls.

I think a man who lets his wife do this has poor midos and is self absorbed. Marriage is about giving, but it's also about taking. There needs to be a balance, and I personally think that someone who lets their wife or husband serve them hand and foot, night and day, is selfish and a poor spouse.

amother

Green

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 10:50 am

Who said she's serving him hand and foot? It's more of a certain old time culture with specific gender roles. My grandparents are like this but doesn't mean she serves him like a servant and he does nothing; my grandfather does tons in the house, constantly fixing stuff, lightbulbs, driving, shlepping, some shopping etc which my grandmother would never think of doing, but when it comes to the kitchen he sits down and she does all the cooking and serving. That's just how they have it set up and it's so nice to see how they each do their role so kindly to eachother .

amother

Bronze

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 11:03 am

This reminds me of an autobiography I read years ago. A Rebbetizin wrote about how after a painful 24 hour labor, it didn't even occur to her to rest. All she could think about was her husband- when she had given birth she went about getting him food and setting it up for him and making sure he was comfortable. Not a femanist either, but I thought that was nuts and unhealthy. After such an ordeal, my dh should not LET me serve him and should make sure I am resting up. It unhealthy to be taught that that is how we should treat our dh.
Eta: it could be this rubbed me the wrong way because I was very unimpressed that she was writing about what a great woman she was- I felt she was stroking her own ego a lot.

amother

Puce

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 11:19 am

You always read about the wives of big Rabbonim/Roshei Yeshivos etc that the wife did all domestic duties and just let her husband learn. Theres a well known story that Rav Eliyasivs wife would send him away before Pesach so he could learn undistributed. True, shw was on a special level, but practically in order for a man to devote himself totally to his learning or students the wife has to practically do everything. Not that big Rabbonim don't help; I read over Succos that Rav Shmuel Kamensky dries the dishes at home, for example, but practicality most rabbonim cant do what they do without the wifes doing almost all domestic duties. Its like G-d gave them a special koach to be able to handle such things so her husband can learn/teach.

Fox

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 11:39 am

I used to be driven crazy by these kinds of stories, but I've come to the conclusion that it's really just a writing style that is ill-adapted for many of us.

When we were first married, DH and I would discuss these kinds of books and articles, and he was always flabbergasted that I took it so literally.

"It's just supposed to show what kind of person she was and how she honored her husband," he would argue.

"Well, why exaggerate? Why not be truthful?"

"Oh, don't be so critical. The author is just trying to make a point."

After several decades of such discussions, I realized that the notion of an extreme story without context is familiar to men through their learning. I assume it might be related to the format or style of Midrashrim, though I've never really investigated.

For whatever reason, it's become a familiar trope in English-language frum writing, even women's writing. Personally, I hate it. But wiser people than I have argued that such exaggerated details are designed to make the point to people of differing intellects and backgrounds.

So when the author writes, "He didn't eat a morsel of food that she didn't place carefully on his plate," read, "She always made her husband's well-being and comfort a priority" and apply that concept appropriately to your own situation.

Or lower your blood pressure by not reading Ami, etc., at all!

amother

Ecru

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 11:44 am

I think it's lovely for a wife to want to take care of her husband this way. I try to do this for my DH most of the time. Even so, there are limits. First of all, it has to be because I want to. If I ever got the feeling that there was the expectation for me to do it, that it wasn't my choice to do it, I would not be so enthused. If DH made himself so helpless that he couldn't feed himself something when I'm not around, this also is a problem. Also, while my DH really enjoys me serving him his food, and I am happy to do it, it's not like he's not pitching in with domestic chores. He will do dishes, he will help with laundry, always makes the morning coffee.... he'll even scrub toilets. So if it gives him happiness that I should serve him breakfast, pack his lunch, and then serve him dinner when he comes home from a long day at the office.... my pleasure.

zaq

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 12:08 pm

Fox wrote:

Or lower your blood pressure by not reading Ami, etc., at all!

That's what I do.

Love your post, Fox. . The problem is that those of us who prize accuracy or are given to understatement tend to assume that when a person says "this is what happened", this is in fact what happened. We forget that some people's style is to exaggerate for effect. "She made his needs her top priority" is admirable, maybe, but bland. "He never ate a morsel that she didn't lovingly and with joy lay gently on a dish placed just so by his right hand" is so much more impressive and poetic, even if the thought makes some of us run for the antiemetics.

amother

Amethyst

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 12:19 pm

amother wrote:

is it? (generational)

my father in law makes my mother in law coffee every morning, (im pretty sure ge doesnt cook clean etc)

Fox

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 12:33 pm

WhatFor wrote:

Re: the posters saying they aren't feminists but...
Feminism is the belief that women deserve equal social, political, legal, and economic rights as men. A feminist is simply someone who believes that.

I think (hope) they people saying they're not feminists simply don't know what that word means.

I would recommend using the expression "equity feminist." Virtually everyone in our times is an equity feminist. We claim not to be feminists because we don't want to give the impression that we are third-wave feminists.

amother

Chocolate

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 12:35 pm

Fox wrote:

I keep hearing this term, but what exactly is the third wave feminist platform?

ETA: All I know about it is that they fight against s-xual harassment, patriarchy, constricting gender roles and the like... I don't understand why there is so much opposition to it in right wing culture.

amother

Navy

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 12:35 pm

I would like to clarify something and I hope it will come out right. The idea of a wife being an aishes chayil does not mean she,is a slave. Lol. The Torah has a lot of respect for the woman. It just means that in order for her dh to learn and devote his time it's wise that she help him. The serving part is normal. All of us like to serve our dh supper. Or whatever meal you want to call it. Some men twist it around and either don't respect their wives and will not lift a finger when the time comes.

That is a chasid shoita. All our gedolim helped their wives. Please remember you read a story of happens to be some people are that way.

If she won't tell her dh when she's pregnant that it's hard for her and she needs his help then I think she has caused it. No I won't blame her. It's possible he grew up this way. Who knows. Maybe she gets a lot of satisfaction from him needing her this way. I don't know. But look around you and you see most men don't behave this way.

I was married to such a type of guy. He was as sick as they come. Not just this but in all areas. He treated me with zero respect. He felt this way because of how his mother was treated. He had a bad role model. I divorced him a few yrs after living with this craziness because there was nothing respectful about him. Fast forward I'm married happily to a decent nice guy. He does nothing of this sort.

All I'm saying is that there could be a decent marriage provided that she wants to do this and it's not forced on her. Looks like my exmother in law was ok with this.