Emulate this way of Serving our Husbands?

marina

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 6:29 pm

And of course, anyone can call themselves anything they want. So some people call themselves Orthodox even though they're not in favor of killing gentile babies or demented rabbis, but we know the truth, don't we Fox? You and I know that those people aren't really Orthodox, no matter what they call themselves. And we're the ones who get to decide, right? You and I get to decide who is a third wave feminist, who is an orthodox woman, and so many other labels too- we're in charge! YAY!

Fox

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 7:08 pm

So rather than bring up analogies that don't quite fit, steer Imamother lurkers toward the books, speakers, and resources that influenced you to identify yourself as a third-wave feminist.

No opinion is unassailable, so refute what I'm saying with facts.

The majority of third-wave feminists don't believe that gender is a social construct? Point us to your source?

The majority of third-wave feminists don't believe that all women exist in a state of oppression? Where is that being discussed?

The majority of third-wave feminists oppose efforts to characterize women as victims? Aside from the ever-popular SlutWalks, how are they advancing this view?

Quote:

A 2013 Huffington Post/YouGov poll showed that only 23 percent of women and 16 percent of men consider themselves feminists — even though 82 percent of both genders believe “men and women should be social, political, and economic equals.”

What does that tell us? A majority of people believe in the goals of equity feminism, but most women and even more men don't believe that gender equity is the same thing as feminism.

If everyone -- including me -- is wrong, perhaps third-wave feminism needs a PR firm.

UQT

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 9:42 pm

Hey ladies, don't worry. The Binah found a way to make husbands look bad and I quote,

"My wife just gave birth to our little Yisroel. She just gave our family the greatest possible gift, and with it came pain and challenges. my appreciation to her after birth was incredibly high, but how do I hold on to that? How can it be that in six months from now, I might look at her and not immediately see the pain she went through to give us this son and indeed all our children? How can I not be filled with gratitude towards all at all times?"

There are guys like? Takes my DH six hours to get over it.

amother

Copper

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 9:49 pm

Ladies, please settle down and let's get back on topic.

In my experience, it seems to me it's so much generational as cultural e.g. European vs. American (and so maybe it depends if you're 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation American, and how much European culture you absorbed from your parents and/or grandparents.)

Of course if you live in EY then depending on how long & where your parents were from. But let's see what Ruchel says!

E.g. my neighbor and I are outside shmuezing when her DH comes home, so she runs inside to serve his dinner.

Whereas my DH is perfectly capable of happily looking in the pots on/in the stove and taking his own food. And if I happen not to have cooked (can you tell I have zero Hungarian blood?), he'll make himself as salad or take a bowl of cereal and milk.

Occasionally if I don't look busy he'll ask me to cut him a salad, I guess it tastes better when I cut it!

marina

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 9:49 pm

Quote:

The majority of third-wave feminists don't believe that gender is a social construct? Point us to your source?

Of course gender is a social construct. So what? Time is also a social construct. And just like actual planetary rotations affect our social construct of time, so too actual chromosomes affect our social construct of gender. It's not all or nothing.

Laiya

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 9:50 pm

Fox wrote:

Quote:

Fox, thank you for taking the time to write these detailed posts. Not just these, but your posts in all of the controversial topics threads. I've learned a lot from them, and I love how your posts are always right to the point, but never snarky or disrespectful.

(And Marina, your posts have also given me food for thought!)

marina

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 9:53 pm

This entire thread, in fact, from the very first post is about how gender is a social construct- how our society's changing expectations for gender roles affect how we perceive women, what a good wife is, etc.

amother

Vermilion

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 10:20 pm

Maybe they are Sephardic, where we come from the men woudlnt even know where in the kitchen are the cups to serve themselves water if the wife is not home.

BH my husband is not like this, my mil raised 5 boys and gave them all the tools to be self sufficient cuz she couldn't serve 6 men on her own!- I mean 6 because in some circles the sons are treated and "served" like the husbands. They don't move a finger.

My father was visiting and he overheard me ask my son to sort his clothes (dirty vs fold back) and he refused to let him claiming he shouldn't do a girls job. That totally went against what I'm teaching but I didn't make a fuss for then but I see this in my sister's marriage.

Her husband is not capable or unwilling cus it's just not his job or something to serve himself a cup of seltzer when he bottle is litterally in his face. He waits for her to serve her. Mind u this happened on motzae yk and I was shocked. She was litterally mid bite of her food and had to scream at him to wait cuz she also fasted!

Over succot We went over and she asked me how my brother in law likes his tea (cuz he's staying w us,) and I had no clue, she couldn't believe I don't make his teas. He totally fends for himself idk if that makes me a bad hostess or he's just self sufficient like his brother my Dh but I litterally don't feel him around the house. I take his laundry to the laundromat cuz we don't have a w/d but other than that he's totally on his own. I make dinner if he wants he microwaves an already served plate cuz I like to clean up pots and the same goes for Dh when he comes home late.

I came from a house of serving the man but my Dh quickly showed me I'm not expected to do so in this marriage BH. I still do but not to the extent of my sister at all! At some point she was away and she came home to see an attempt to a cheese sandwich on the counter failed and left to rot for as long as she was gone. He couldn't cut through the cheese so he aborted the idea and got take out. She's trying to undo this pattern w her sons so it doesn't perpetuate but idk how successful she'll be when this is the example she sets.

My husband doesn't have time to help around the house much but he has no issue w washing bathrooms, floors, dishes, or kids if it's really been neglected by me for too long after a birth or during hard pregnancies BH! Thank You Hashem for my mil raising her boys this way!

marina

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 10:29 pm

Fox wrote:

Quote:

I'm not a fan of being asked to prove that your statements are wrong. It's your responsibility to back up your claims and you haven't done so. You've offered nothing to show that the majority of third wave feminists don't believe in science or that they all view women as victims, etc, etc. Now you're asking me to prove the majority doesn't think this way, but you've not offered any polls to show that they do.

Is there a poll you can show me to clarify exactly what percentage of the frum community agrees with Mizrachi's video, linked above? Is it a minority? 50-50? Is there some gallup data? Should we do an imamother poll?

3rd wave feminism, as I understand it, is primarily about rejecting uniformity and allowing for diversity of experiences. The idea is that feminists can be very diverse and you don't need to slavishly adhere to some single understanding of what a feminist is and does. You can be a girly girl and be a feminist, you can be a butch lesbian and be a feminist, you can be a frum sahm and be a feminist- no one is written out of the category just because her experiences are not typical.

I liked this article http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.....tents

Water Stones

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 10:39 pm

I'm a housewife and mother. I serve my husband. He supports me by his working 10 hours a day. When he comes home, he doesn't have to lift finger. It's my job and I do it proudly.

sequoia

Tue, Nov 01 2016, 10:52 pm

Seashells wrote:

I'm a housewife and mother. I serve my husband. He supports me by his working 10 hours a day. When he comes home, he doesn't have to lift finger. It's my job and I do it proudly.

You will feel a lot different when you're pregnant with two toddlers and a baby. You will need his help then.

Tablepoetry

Wed, Nov 02 2016, 2:46 am

Fox wrote:

Quote:

Of course feminism today needs better PR. That's rather obvious. A lot of people believe in feminist values but shy away from the word.
And I don't understand why you are equating feminism with third wave feminism. Just because third wave is prominent today doesnt mean it's the riding definition of feminism. Like saying reform Judaism is the latest, most popular version of Judaism, so if you identify as an involved Jew you must be reform.
And for what it's worth, I also understood third wave to include difference as a value - in other words we dont all need to think the same.

unexpected

Wed, Nov 02 2016, 6:31 am

I agree with seashells and I happen to be the proud mother of two toddlers and a baby (who are #s 8, 9 and 10 in the family). I personally am not a feminist, I don't care about voting or equality in the workplace since I do neither. I must admit that I don't wait on him hand and foot but I do serve him supper when he comes home. I believe that after a long day of work (or school) everyone deserves some quiet time, as well as a clean table to eat on, and a nourishing meal. I am well aware that his working is what enables me to stay home all day with the kids, which also gives me a LOT more downtime over the day than he gets at work. Can't say I'm perfect at it, but it is one of my strongly held values and it gives me pleasure as well

amother

Lavender

Wed, Nov 02 2016, 9:26 am

To the posters piping up about how it's their job and pleasure to serve their husbands, no need to defend yourself, this thread is not about whether you're actually serving your husband or not. It's about the expectations and choices regarding it.
If you are able and honored and proud to do so, of course that is beautiful.
And to Fox and Marina, I'm enjoying your points regarding feminism.

zigi

Wed, Nov 02 2016, 9:45 am

not everyone is cut out for a marriage dynamic like this. if you want to great but, don't feel bad if it looks different. 50-50. there should be stories of different models of marriage. there were few where the gadol did help his wife etc.

Chayalle

Wed, Nov 02 2016, 10:05 am

Seashells wrote:

I'm a housewife and mother. I serve my husband. He supports me by his working 10 hours a day. When he comes home, he doesn't have to lift finger. It's my job and I do it proudly.

It's great that that works for you.

There could be another couple where the husband works 10 hours a day, but so does the wife - as a SAHM of several kids, pg, etc...perhaps some of those kids have behavioral challenges, or health challenges, or whatever....and when husband comes home she is perhaps more zonked than he is. There should be no expectation that he doesn't lift a finger, and no need for her to feel bad about that.

There were plenty of Gedolim who helped out at home and took care of their wives. And some where the wives took care of their husband. The underlying point here is, they did what worked for them personally. We don't all have to be the same.

Ruchel

Wed, Nov 02 2016, 11:21 am

EWW. It makes the man sound disabled, chas veshalom. Why emulate anything? Be you.

I'm not a feminist in the modern sense... I'm one of those who believe in equal but separate.

I would be divorced though if I had to be a server. Even if I happen to serve the food, I don't "serve" anyone. No chore is mine per se just because I am a female. I take no pride in house holding.

My chassidish born grandfather handled the mornings since he had to get up anyway so my grandmother could sleep Smile

and as soon as he could pay, they had a cleaning lady. His own mother zal hyd barely cooked...

On my other side my great grandmother was definitely a balabuste but still our women are not judged on their chores Smile

amother

Sienna

Wed, Nov 02 2016, 11:25 am

marina wrote:

Third wave feminism is a philosophy, and Fox has cited the founders and developers of that philosophy, and summarized the philosophy's main views as explained by them.

In other words, she gave us a definition.

Whether or not some, most or all people who believe they agree with that philosophy are actually aware of what the term means, is a different point.

amother

Sienna

Wed, Nov 02 2016, 11:31 am

marina wrote:

There is a difference between saying that what society expects from each gender, is a social construct, and saying that gender itself is a social construct. Which is where the lack of science comes in.

Fox

Wed, Nov 02 2016, 1:50 pm

marina wrote:

3rd wave feminism, as I understand it, is primarily about rejecting uniformity and allowing for diversity of experiences. The idea is that feminists can be very diverse and you don't need to slavishly adhere to some single understanding of what a feminist is and does. You can be a girly girl and be a feminist, you can be a butch lesbian and be a feminist, you can be a frum sahm and be a feminist- no one is written out of the category just because her experiences are not typical.

I liked this article http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.....tents

I read this article as carefully as possible last night while also davening for the Cubs. While I agree it's an excellent article, it neglected some of the points that are most problematic for me while introducing new ones I hadn't considered in depth.

The Inclusion Issue
This has a let's-all-play-nicely-together ring to it, but it ultimately leads to a hollow identity: if everyone can define her own feminism and every action can be considered a "feminist act," does it really mean anything to consider yourself a feminist?

One writer is quoted as saying, "I decided my activism was the kind of activism women of color do on a daily basis. Everything I did to keep myself alive -- from holding down my job to painting my toenails . . . "

The Victim Issue
This writer goes on to list a number of everyday activities, including cooking and watching TV that are apparently challenging when one is being oppressed.

Another writer shares, "I worry about dating whites, especially white men . . . I see what a white man did to my beautiful, brown, Mexican mother. He colonized her."

The article even acknowledges that third-wave feminism takes the old feminist adage that "the personal is political" and carries it to its most extreme conclusion. Much of third-wave feminism is associated with personal stories that never make the leap into theory, action, or even raised awareness.

Focusing on how difficult life can be presents a whole slew of problems that undermine legitimate concern about women's welfare.

* It creates a victim contest. "'I grew up in poverty with 12 siblings in a violent multi-racial home where I suffered malnutrition and was molested.' 'Oh, yeah? Well I grew up in Schaumburg, Illinois!'"

* It keeps the focus on the intractability of the problems rather than on the solutions.

* By rewarding victimhood, it encourages women to see every problem as a result of being a victim.

The Gender Issue
Sienna Amother has beautifully summarized the problem: there are differences between gender, gender roles, and expressions of gender roles.

Third-wave feminism -- and this article confirm this -- subscribes to the philosophies of Judith Butler, who believes that all gender is a social construct. Not just expressions of gender roles. Not even gender roles. Gender itself is something society came up with.

I do not believe that.

Science shows that there are many, many differences between men and women aside from their reproductive capacities.

I also believe that roles are gendered. I believe that there are roles, such as nurturing and beautifying, that can generally be considered feminine. I believe that there are other roles, such as building and defending, that can generally be considered masculine.

However, how those gender roles are expressed varies from individual to individual, and this is where equity, tolerance, and respect come in. Some individuals will express gender roles that are very close to their genders -- the female toddler who lovingly rocks a doll while her male twin builds and demolishes blocks. Other people will express gender roles corresponding to their gender to a lesser degree -- the proverbial tomboy or the bookish boy.

I believe that we can acknowledge the existence of gender roles and appreciate them without demanding that everyone express those roles in the same way or to the same degree.

Oh, Fox and Marina! Why Does This Matter? The OP Was Just Talking About a Magazine Article . . .
Attending to the details of one's mate's comfort can legitimately be seen as a feminine gender role. So how is that gender role expressed, and how should it be expressed in a frum family?

Some of us probably express that gender role infrequently. Others express it in different ways. The woman described in the magazine expressed the gender role of attending to her mate's comfort by preparing and serving meals. Presumably, she and her husband believed that was an important expression of her role.

However, someone else might express the role of caring for a mate by making sure his laundry was done promptly or by making him a lunch to take to work or taking him to buy a new suit.

So should we emulate the subject of the essay by lovingly arranging haute cuisine meals and place them before our DHs each evening? A significant percentage of our DHs would probably say (or at least think!), "You spent all day cooking this? Why didn't you do something useful like pick up my cleaning?"

It shouldn't be forbidden or considered in bad taste to say, "This is a woman thing! Women do this really well and it contributes to a better world." That doesn't mean that all women do it; it doesn't mean that men can't do it; it doesn't mean that women do it equally well. It simply means that we honor gender roles and find ways the best ways to express them in our lives.

Camille Paglia said in S-xual Personae that when we erase the differences between men and women, both lose. The goal of feminism shouldn't be to convince us that men and women are alike; it should be to glorify the importance of feminine gender roles and help women express those gender roles in healthy ways.