I Am Very Disturbed by This Gemara

marina

Wed, Aug 09 2017, 7:33 am

Quote:

It is also crucial to note that the first Tosfos on the page explains on the spot that because of the complex issue brought up of Tavua L’hinasei that by definition they clearly could not have consummated all marriages of this type because if they did, it would create a halachic issue which would render all the women as tamei Niddah for reasons that well surpass understanding and interest of most women here. In fact I’ve probably already gone too deep.

Women aren't automatically niddah upon biah. Especially back then when dam besulim wasn't considered metamei. And nothing suggests they were all virgins... which would be even worse.

Quote:

The Gemara then discusses a technical difficulty that one cannot marry someone the night they meet them because the excitement for the marriage may cause her to menstruate

Isn't this the same thing as Tavua L'hinasei?

But the main question on this is: If the women would be all niddah, what is the point of yichud or marriage with them? They'd not be available. And he'd know that ahead of time.

And women just aren't niddah because they're getting married and that's super exciting. That's not a thing.

marina

Wed, Aug 09 2017, 7:35 am

Quote:

The point is, if on the spot one of the primary two commentators on the page says they weren’t consummating the marriage, then CLEARLY they were proposing marriage for entirely different reasons and we are not discussing meaningless relations or one night stands AT ALL

.

Also this idea of yichud and not consummating the "marriage" makes ZERO SENSE in the gemara's context. The gemara is talking about knowing who the dad is. If these people never consummated anything, there's no point to this example. They never had 5ex, so never fathered anyone, so what's the example for?

The context doesn't support this at all.

marina

Wed, Aug 09 2017, 7:39 am

Quote:

So even with this understanding that they would actually marry the women and have children with them, the Gemara is not discussing one night stands or meaningless relations. It is discussing having two families, each in the spirit of Kedusha, in two different cities.

It specifically says for one night. You can't get around that. Two families each in the spirit of kedusha isn't for one night. Ever.

GreenEyes26

Wed, Aug 09 2017, 7:44 am

Thank you, Marina. I looked forward to you taking that post apart piece by piece.

And btw, to all the posters who immediately said, "Why are you even bringing this Gemara up? Just to stir up trouble? Blah blah blah" this is exactly what turns people off of Judiasim in a major way. Why do people keep doing this? The biggest excuse I hear when I criticize the BY/yeshivish system is "of course you can ask questions, you're just not asking the right person!" Well, when people ask questions, don't yell at them.

marina

Wed, Aug 09 2017, 7:51 am

haleyaskins wrote:

Fiji,

Your answer is apologetics at its best.

Thanks for your analysis here. I do want to point out that apologetics is not always bad, but it almost always shows how uncomfortable we are in light of modern sensibilities and societal norms. It does continue to raise the question of whether morality is relative and fluctuates with generations or is fundamentally based on religion.

In short, is it fundamentally moral for great men to have one night "marriages" in different cities to prevent themselves from sin? Or is this something awful that was accepted in previous generations because love was not a thing connected to 5ex but now we know better?

mommy3b2c

Wed, Aug 09 2017, 7:58 am

marina wrote:

Ok, fiji. In short, your response raises much more questions than it answers. Please check with your husband and get back to us.

I'm not much of a Gemara learner, but as far as I understand. All of Gemara is a bunch of questions that have responses that raise more questions. Many, (most?) of the situations described are theoretical or symbolic. They never happened and never will happen. They are just discussions that are used to help explain Halacha. My brother told me about a Gemara about some Talmud chacham that had a p-nis the size of a whole room. Explain to me the purpose of that one? The Gemara of this thread also seems disturbing to me. But I'm not bothered by it. I'll explain why. I am a religious woman living a religious life style. There is no man I know that would read this Gemara and say-"great idea. Now I'm going to have one night stands because obviously the Halacha sanctions it." There is no rabbi that would approve of one night stands or excuse a man for having one night stands. Judaism does not allow polygamy anymore. This Gemara does not effect me negatively, nor has it effected any other women negatively. Even if it did occur, the women went by choice. The Jewish religion as I see it, when followed properly, teaches men to be good husbands. And this is why the Gemara doesn't bother me. Marina, I think you should learn with someone that has a deep understanding of Gemara. Perhaps then you will get the answers you are seeking.

haleyaskins

Wed, Aug 09 2017, 8:08 am

marina wrote:

Marina, I wholeheartedly agree with you. And as a limmudei kodesh teacher for teenagers I rely on apologetics a whole lot. And for most students (and adults) that works. But for the select few who I can see are unhappy with Judaism's go-to answers, my reaction is certainly NOT to dismiss their concerns, or accuse them of mocking Judaism. Instead, we work towards finding an answer that sits right with them. It may not be the traditional answer, but it allows them to relate to their Judaism in a meaningful and authentic way that is void of confusion and anger. As GreenEyes26 pointed out, avoiding tough questions and being dismissive of inquiries is a sure way to push a child away from a Torah life.

I guess the question is: If Rav and Rav Nachman were here with us in 2017 would they argue that their behavior (albeit accepted 1700~ years ago) would no longer be considered appropriate? Or would they utilize talmudic reasoning to prove that it is still within the confines of halacha?

Dandelion1

Wed, Aug 09 2017, 9:22 am

marina wrote:

I think we have both elevated and debased 5ex to an outrageous degree in recent generations. Many of us here seem to view all issues that are 5xual in nature through a very fundamentalist (and not necessarily Jewish) lens. Any woman who acknowledges that her dh has seen p-rn, bad movies, the attractive neighbor, and not averted his eyes in disgust and horror (and that the poster is kinda OK about it) is pounced upon as accepting the unacceptable.

This is not to say that any extremes of addiction or adultery or plain old smarminess and lechery is OK. Of course it's not. But 5ex and attraction are a basic part of our makeup and while we try to be civilized and appropriate by society's standards, this is still a fact of nature.

I think we are inherently uncomfortable to acknowledge that
a. the learned and holy men of our past were human, and
b. that the way we approach 5ex and relationships today, may be quite different from the way they were once approached.

Men then had multiple wives. Why was this? Certainly not because today's standards of love and fidelity and companionship were absolutes that have existed always. Clearly they didn't.

martina

Wed, Aug 09 2017, 9:23 am

SixOfWands wrote:

Not quite.

Men shouldn't have a wife in every port because what if the kids marry one another inadvertently. Because, well, there are a lot of Shlomos out there. And maybe he only said that he was Shlomo when he married his one night wife, and he's really Shmuel.

That doesn't apply to gedolim, however, because if your father is a gadol, everyone will know it, and everyone knows that Rav Gadol is Rav Gadol, not Shloimie the Baker from Cleveland.

But apart from the issue of the kids marrying, that Gemara doesn't seem to think there is any issue with One Night Marriage. (Anyone else think this sounds like ancient Sacred Prostitution?)

I hope to G-d therre is no baker called shloimie in clevelandm if yes, poor guy! Whew

marina

Wed, Aug 09 2017, 9:54 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

There is no man I know that would read this Gemara and say-"great idea. Now I'm going to have one night stands because obviously the Halacha sanctions it." There is no rabbi that would approve of one night stands or excuse a man for having one night stands. Judaism does not allow polygamy anymore. This Gemara does not effect me negatively, nor has it effected any other women negatively.

I understand that this is outdated now and that normal pple aren't going to rely on this gemara to have affairs.

My question is why. Is this because s-xual exclusivity is a fundamental value in the Torah that endures for all generations? Or because secular society now looks down upon meaningless 5ex?

marina

Wed, Aug 09 2017, 10:04 am

aleph wrote:

[/b]

I think we have both elevated and debased 5ex to an outrageous degree in recent generations. Many of us here seem to view all issues that are 5xual in nature through a very fundamentalist (and not necessarily Jewish) lens. Any woman who acknowledges that her dh has seen p-rn, bad movies, the attractive neighbor, and not averted his eyes in disgust and horror (and that the poster is kinda OK about it) is pounced upon as accepting the unacceptable.

This is not to say that any extremes of addiction or adultery or plain old smarminess and lechery is OK. Of course it's not. But 5ex and attraction are a basic part of our makeup and while we try to be civilized and appropriate by society's standards, this is still a fact of nature.

I think we are inherently uncomfortable to acknowledge that
a. the learned and holy men of our past were human, and
b. that the way we approach 5ex and relationships today, may be quite different from the way they were once approached.

Men then had multiple wives. Why was this? Certainly not because today's standards of love and fidelity and companionship were absolutes that have existed always. Clearly they didn't.

Here's a link of the kind we always talk about https://newyork.craigslist.org.....=frum

These are the "frum" guys on craigslist looking for 5ex in all the wrong places. Looking for frum married moms, FWB, swingers, etc.

Is there anything fundamentally wrong with this, assuming everything is consensual and no other partners are hurt? What's actually wrong with the Satmar swingers that were profiled in the Post a while back?

Ok, so halacha and adultery. But if the girl is unmarried? Threesomes, two girls one guy, or just random hookups guy with a girl? Many pple are like, hey if it doesn't hurt anyone, so what.

People - here and elsewhere - read these ads and are appalled and disgusted. But why? Is it fundamentally wrong because 5ex is supposed to be meaningful or is it not wrong at all, but society just sort of looks down on it in this particular period in time?

This is really a question about the Truth with a capital T and I dk if there's any answer.

mommy3b2c

Wed, Aug 09 2017, 10:05 am

marina wrote:

Does secular society really look down on meaningless s-x? I think an attitude of "we are both consenting adults, we just want to have a good time without commitment" is more of a prevalent attitude.

I think that s-xual exclusivity is a dundalental value in the Torah. But I have to think about it a bit more to come up with a satisfactory explanation about how such a Gemara, or allowing polygamy makes sense in a Torah that values s-xual exclusivity.

Last edited by mommy3b2c on Wed, Aug 09 2017, 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total

marina

Wed, Aug 09 2017, 10:07 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

Does secular society really look down on meaningless s-x? I think an attitude of "we are both consenting adults, we just want to have a good time without commitment" is more of a prevalent attitude.

I think it mostly does. In some small segments, like college life, girls are told that they should feel free to take their pleasure as they wish and not be constricted by social norms, because this is what guys do.

But other than that, I don't think so. Like the secular couples I know, whether married or not, are not fans of meaningless 5ex at all.

SixOfWands

Wed, Aug 09 2017, 10:13 am

marina wrote:

But secular society doesn't look down on meaningless 5ex. Not really. We have booty calls and friends with benefits and hookups and websites to find partner for casual 5ex. Tinder isn't exactly a siren call for deep relationships. You have Wilt Chamberlain and Gene Simmons and Pamela DesBarres and Cynthia Plaster Caster.

And doesn't this gemorrah play into that, for those who are interested? Gene Simmons (nee Chaim Witz) can have Shannon Tweed and the kids at home, and the 4600 women on the road don't change their relationship.

mommy3b2c

Wed, Aug 09 2017, 10:14 am

marina wrote:

So what you are saying is that secular society believes in being faithful once you are older and settled. That makes sense.
But most would agree that the college life is about being young and wild and free.

On the contrary, the society in which I was raised truly believes in haveing s-x only with your one and truly beloved. You're supposed to be in a completely committed relationship before you have s/x. You're not even supposed to have s-x with your fiancé. Which most secular couples do. And I don't think is wrong. I only didn't have s-x with my chosen because of Halacha.

So if the attitude of no meaningless s-x is coming from the secular world, why is it the religious Jewish world that actually adhere to these rules? (For the most part)

marina

Wed, Aug 09 2017, 10:24 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

I think it's more accepted in college only if you are young and stupid and drunk or a floozie. The mature intelligent secular kids are not sleeping around at all. In fact there are widely accepted derogatory terms for guys who just want to sleep around - **** boys, for example, and they are regularly discarded as trash.

If you just do a google search for that term, you'll see so many articles about dumping **** boys and how you deserve better than that etc etc

Last edited by marina on Wed, Aug 09 2017, 10:28 am; edited 1 time in total

marina

Wed, Aug 09 2017, 10:26 am

SixOfWands wrote:

FWB is seen as immature and sleazy. Most women who get a request for that on dating website, for example, delete that guy right away. Many of the actual websites will then block those pple.

Tinder has changed precisely for that reason- it's much much less about hookups now because pple are not interested in that.

Girls who give into FWB or agree to booty calls are seen as less than, as desperate.