Cheating to get tuition discount

staten islander

Sun, Aug 13 2017, 9:00 am

I have an acquintance who recently relocated to our area. She is looking to enroll her kids in the local school. She was asking me about fin aid,and I told her I have no clue. She then said that she is not married on paper and shows no income, so she will be able to get a large discount ( her husband runs a successful cash business). I was really shocked,and unfortunately, too flustered to respond. Wwyd?

imasoftov

Sun, Aug 13 2017, 9:07 am

staten islander wrote:

I'd tell her about this site and how it's a great place to get advice about such matters.

amother

Mauve

Sun, Aug 13 2017, 9:14 am

The school financial aid forms require lots and lots of information. They really don't care about whether or not she's married on paper- they will look at the kids father's income regardless, plus many other details. My school requires bank statements, credit card statements, an extensive questionnare.. plus they will probably do some of their own investigation.

If she tries to scam them and they pick up on it (which they likely will), she is doing herself a major disservice.

amother

Peach

Sun, Aug 13 2017, 9:26 am

As the poster above me stated, income is just one small part of the financial aid application. Even if she can get around that question, how will she respind to the many other questions that would potentially disqualify a person if means.

How much did you pay for your house?
Where did toy spend yomtov last year?
List all vacations you took in the last year and the cost.
What type of cars do you drive?
What extra curricular activities do your children participate in?
How much money do you have in your checking and savings accounts?

If her husband runs a successful business as you say, there will likely be no way around some of these questions.

watergirl

Sun, Aug 13 2017, 10:10 am

Anyone daft enough to brag about her plan to someone who she just met will make a mistake somewhere and get busted. Like when she goes in to hand in her papers and forgets to remove her rings. Or any other time that she walked into the school for the rest of her children's careers there and forgets to take off her rings. They're going to catch her and then she's going to be really uncomfortable with her kids even in the school.

amother

Honeydew

Sun, Aug 13 2017, 10:11 am

amother wrote:

In addition to all this, if your listed income is less than your listed expenses, my kids' school asks that you provide an explanation of how you cover your expenses.

anon for this

Sun, Aug 13 2017, 10:29 am

Every financial aid form I've completed for my children's schools has asked about the children's father and his income, and asked for his signature on financial aid and tuition forms. Even though I state that I'm not married (my husband is deceased), I've been asked on online registration and financial aid forms to provide contact information and income for him; many forms will show up as incomplete and won't submit if I don't enter this information.

amother

Aubergine

Sun, Aug 13 2017, 10:47 am

Obviously she is being dishonest because if shes not married on paper, the dhs business is still providing her income and schools ask so many details that need to be reported about income.

So, the end result is that she is cheating the school, but is there really anything you can do??? I used to be horrified finding out that frum jews are dishonest like this but unfortunately, some frum jews dont follow the honesty part of the torah as they probably let their yetzer horah control them as they are money hungry.

As others said above, married or not, income and all details must be reported, so if she doesnt report her husbands income(and he is her husband even if not on paper, im assuming she got married the jewish way??)
Shes lying on her form. She may get caught and may not but what can you really do?? Unless you have the guts to tell her that she must report all income regardless....otherwise it is stealing/cheating....

Im just as disgusted as you. I just dealt with a therapist who wrote dishonest things and made me sign and I didnt have the strength guts...to tell him that he is wrong for writing things that didnt happen, such as claiming he was here for the entire 60 minutes but left after 45 min...

amother

Aubergine

Sun, Aug 13 2017, 10:53 am

Furthermore, she said she has "no income" what does that mean?? The schools will want to know how she pays her bills.

Recently my close relative told me "I have no income" and went to a free health clinic for ppl who have "no income". But what does this mean, if shes not on hud or...then how do you pay your rent on "no income" if your dh has no job??

The school will ask for details about her expenses and how things are paid for. .. ..

amother

Sienna

Sun, Aug 13 2017, 12:17 pm

IMHO, I would tell such a person that the best way is to go honest: to ask the school if they can make a reduction based on _________ I don't know wht's going on in her life.

It's all in Hashem's Hands, and only if Hashem Wants she will get the reduction.

And who says that her dh is really running a successful business. Very often it seems so to outsiders that s/one is running a successful business, but really that man can be drowning in debts. And p'haps his house is mortgaged to the bank. e.t.c Many men don't tell their wives about their financial situation. And could be this woman's husband doesn't tell her, esp. if she shows herself as so naive to relate to a stranger what she told you.

I actually don't feel disgust toward her. I feel pity.
Pity that they resort to dishonesty.
I don't want to speak bad - the yetzer hora is so wily, we have to daven to realize when he is fooling us into doing wrong.

I don't think it is a good idea that the woman should post her question and reveal xyz on this site - a public forum. This site is on the internet and thus it goes worldwide and we don't know into who's hands it can end up.
They can c'v end up in jail.

Yes, I'm not being dramatic. I'm just trying to forewarn.

OP, I also don't think that you should continue this discussion on this site. You are this woman's neighbor, and she told you what she told you.

I'd be afraid to carry on such a discussion on an internet forum even though you aren't the
perp. In fact I'd be afraid to have such a discussion at all.

I wonder how the woman and her husband would react if they knew that you had posted about them on the internet ...

Just my 2 cents.

amother

Denim

Sun, Aug 13 2017, 12:27 pm

Sienna, chill. OPs neighbor is hardly unique. There's an entire charedi culture of claiming to be single moms in order to qualify for government programs. There are many people who brag about how they cheat in other ways. Nobody's going to go digging into OPs profile, figure out who she is, then investigate all the people living on her block to track down this one misguided woman and throw her in jail. If she gets investigated, it will be for good reason and not because of OP post.

amother

Peach

Sun, Aug 13 2017, 12:43 pm

amother wrote:

The op specifically said the aquaintence was looking to qualify based on the fact that she showed no income on the books, not as your suggesting that her husband's business is failing and they had debt. You're simply changing the story.

imasinger

Sun, Aug 13 2017, 1:35 pm

The details of this acquaintance's choices and its rightness is between her and Hashem.

But OP, you also answer to Hashem. And therefore, your post and your dilemma are real.

Do you just ignore the whole thing, say"none of my business", and go on as if nothing happened, and assume that the school will be responsible for investigating?

Do you snub her without confrontation, because you just don't want to have a person in your life who acts this way, but don't feel you have the standing to do more?

Do you speak up in the moment, and say, "oh, please don't do that, hearing about dishonesty really upsets me?"

Do you attempt mussar, saying something like, "I know someone who had literally no money and had to send her kid to public school, I really hope anyone who really can afford tuition would pay it and save the tzedaka for those who are in dire need"?

Each situation takes time and thought to decide what is right. And sometimes, we only have a second to make that decision.

Best to use this situation to clarify in your own mind what you might do if such a thing ever happened again.