Davening and saying tehlim

southernbubby

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 8:09 am

amother wrote:

Interesting perspective. The issue that I have with this line of thinking is that it flies in the face of practical reality of what we actually see. When we think positively about someone "we open up a vessel of blessing for them that wasn't there before". Again, really??? We just don't see that and can't honestly apply that logic. Of course I can memorize it and repeat it and if I say it enough times I might start believing it, but you logic implies that at it's core, people who are davened for have more blessings than others. This is factually not true. Health, parnasah, and good marriages are not exclusive to people who daven and are davened for. In fact, there is very little correlation between having these things and davening. I feel bad saying this as I was raised a frum person. I'm just saying what appears obvious to me. The only thing I can possibly accept is that we don't understand ANYTHING about tefillah and hashem. If so, I can't really appreciate something on a meaningful level that I don't understand whatsoever.

Donald Trump claims that he is a believer and that he prays, so possibly his prayers caused his success. We don't know if praying for a sick and dying person gave them one more day or even one more hour.

WhatFor

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 8:29 am

amother wrote:

I often see here that when people see a sad post, whether a health issue or personal crisis, they will respond that they will daven for a yeshua for thst person. I'm trying to get some clarity on this. I also often see people saying that davening is about creating and reinforcing a relationship with hashem-not that he will in any way respond the way we hope for. Which is it? Does davening help on a real and practical level? Meaning for example that woman who daven find shidduchim more tan woman who don't daven. Families that daven experience fewer tragedies than families that don't. Is this the case? Doesn't seem so. And if it's not, why do we respond to someone else's suffering that we will daven for the person if it really doesn't help that person but only serves to help connect the one davening with hashem?

I also have personal issues with believing in the idea that davening will cause Hashem to give the person things they weren't otherwise supposed to have. But I think of davening as working this way:

I feel like davening mostly impacts the person doing it. It's a meditation, of sorts, in which the person is stating their intentions of what they want to happen. Now if you wake up every day and tell yourself what direction you want to be going in, you're more likely to be able to make it happen. You might start changing your behavior to propel you in the direction you want to go.

For example, if someone is praying for shidduchim every day, they might call more shadchanim that day, send their child (or themself) to self-awareness or personality development courses to improve their chances of meeting someone for them, etc.

I also think that even in situations where the person cannot affect the outcome (such as a sick person) it's therapeutic for them to be able to verbally express what they wish would happen. It helps them to be more in touch with themselves and also to overcome grief afterward if things don't turn out how they wish.

I also believe that davening can help the sick in the sense that when people know how loved they are that people want them to get better, it can help strengthen them to keep fighting, where it's possible.

unexpected

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 8:31 am

amother wrote:

I don't see where in Mandksima's post you see that a person who is davened for should have more material blessing in their lives. I think you are looking for people to agree with you that there is no point in davening, rather than honestly searching for an answer.

amother

Babyblue

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 8:41 am

Others might have said this, but I'll say it very clearly:

Hashem answers our tefillos, but we have no way of knowing what His answer was.

Things happen for all different reasons -- maybe the person is being punished because he is a rasha, or maybe they are being given a kappara so their olam haba can be perfect, or maybe the person needed a wake-up call to do teshuva, or maybe the person is really being rewarded because without davening their tzara would have been so much worse!

For example, I got into a car accident last week and totaled my car, but bH no one was hurt. Was I being punished? Maybe. Was I being told by Hashem never to look at my phone while driving, even at Google Maps, lest cv I crash the car later but that time I'll kill a toddler? Maybe. Maybe both of these reasons, or neither.

We have no way of knowing, and we won't know until Mashiach comes and we have neviim. In the meantime, getting closer to Hashem will never do us harm and can only do us good.

southernbubby

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 9:18 am

amother wrote:

But if I tell you that Donald Trump has been successful because he drives a red car and drinks lemonade, You would likely see the obvious flaw in this logic and point out that many others drive red cars and drink lemonade and are very unsuccessful. Yet for some reason when it comes to religion and davening, you make the argument that perhaps trump has been successful because he believes and prays while completely ignoring the millions who pray and are unsuccessful. C'mon, Surely you see the flaw in your argument.

I don't see the flaw in my argument because people often pray for the wrong things. We can't expect another 20 years for a dying person, although it has been known to happen but we can pray for comfort for the person or a little more time. Sometimes getting a person through a few more days means that they are alive for a simcha.

It also doesn't mean that a prayer that doesn't come true was wasted because our prayers are saved and applied to other situations later on or in even in the next world.

We say kaddish for parents who were never frum a day in their lives because we view them as getting an aliyah in the next world, even if they did very few mitzvahs in this world. Those prayers help them and are not wasted.

imorethanamother

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 1:10 pm

The OP isn't entirely off base. I once read something by the Rambam that completely changed the way I thought. I was raised in Bais Yaakov where we prayed for everything, were told to pray for other people, and you kind of had this expectation that if you prayed long enough, hard enough, Hashem would answer you, even if it was a "no".

What I read in the Rambam is that there are two things that aren't quite true, but we use them as crutches in our day to day life. The first is: (1) Understanding Hashem as a corporeal being. With "arms", "eyes" ,"ears", etc. Because Hashem is so beyond our comprehension, we need to understand Him in human terms. (2) That Hashem answers personal prayer.

That last bit freaked me out. That couldn't be true, right? It flew in the face of everything I believed in. I asked a learned Talmud Chacham, and he said that actually, the tannaim were much more. . . harsh in the face of difficulties. They didn't behave this way, davening if someone had problems in their lives to make Hashem take the problem away. Etc etc. The thought process was, if Hashem gave it to you, it was good and that was that. So they agreed with the Rambam.

I was so bothered by this that I asked someone else. He said that times change, and that Hashem sometimes deals with us in a way that we can handle. Our generation need much more of a fatherly, kindly figure, one that we feel listens to us. (Kamayim hapanim el panim - from Mishlei) So, ergo, He does.

Will Hashem take everything away and make it all better? No. But Hashem wants our unity, as others have said. Praying for others and feeling their pain makes you a better person, and the goal is to be one in our pain so that Hashem will ultimately make us one in our joy. Achdus.

mandksima

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 3:24 pm

amother wrote:

Most of tefilla is praising Hashem and saying all the amazing good things He has done for us and we ask Him to keep His promises for Moshiach coming along with everything else that entails. We are building our own emunah when we say these words. There are times for special private requests as well as for refuah requests for individuals and anyone who is sick. It is there because we believe prayer has a power that can change a decree. I don't believe we get what we daven for necessarily or other people get exactly what we daven for them but there is always a positive result from it. Maybe you are focusing on the detailed requests instead of the positive feelings created from focusing on another person's needs.

In regards to one's own life, one should always feel they have the best life meant for them and try not to complain about things that we, as humans, can't possibly know if they are truly bad for us. We are human though and Hashem knows that we can't always fathom how our pain and suffering helps us so like others wrote, He accepts our davening in some form that only He knows. Every good deed is repaid and davening for others is a good deed. I agree with others, we never know if the deed will be repaid in a way we can see in our life or at all because maybe the reward is a bad thing never occurring at all. Let's say you had a decree to get sick but because you davened with all of your heart for someone else, your decree was cancelled. You would never know that. You'd think if that sick person never recovered that your tefillah was in vain. Same thing is if you were fated to have a fatal car accident but BH it never occurred because you gave tzedakah when it was difficult for you and tzedakah saves from death. That's why tefilla and tzedakah go together well. We can never rely on our own tefilla to be really sincere as we usually have ulterior motives and who has perfect concentration but tzedakah goes directly to counterbalance bad decrees, even if given skeptically. There are lots of stories that prove this but then again, one can't approach this with only logic. Emunah is the foundation of davening.

One more thing I wanted to share was that we are assured that Hashem will ALWAYS answer the request for spiritual growth in order to get closer to Him. That is the ticket for everyone to improve their life but mostly people want to change around details during our short existence here. How many people ask for spirituality though and really want to do the steps that it takes? Who offers sacrifices from their desires in order to reach a new height? People are usually davening for the wrong things. Things they think would be good for them. Things they think they deserve. Hashem knows what each person needs and sometimes there is suffering necessary for the next step. We are not in this life to have a good easy time. We shouldn't daven for our life to be easier as much as we should ask for the strength to surpass this test with simcha and dignity in order to cause a Kiddush Hashem. So, one can't measure how many people have easy times of things vs who doesn't compared to how much they were davened for, etc. There would no yardstick available by anyone but Hashem who knows all cheshbonot and is 100% middah kneged middah. The amazing thing is - once we truly want to grow spiritually and daven for that, we get that and suddenly our vision of this world is expanded and we understand so much more than we once did. No longer will the desire to daven for specific things feel necessary. You will understand so completely that Hashem always does the best for you. You can save your tears for others who you should always daven for because we should never be able to be quiet when others are suffering.

mandksima

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 3:38 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Very true but I hope that she is not limiting her influence to this website and her immediate circle of people but that she is spreading these words to others, if she has a way to do that. She could find various ways to teach people these wise concepts.

I am very happy if I can change even one person's life in a positive way but you think there are better ways than here? I think a lot of women come here searching for answers and it is a good platform. I don't always have the strength to be confrontional and so many people are in so much pain, I am afraid to make things worse. Who knows if I am saying the right thing when it is my opinion so I try to stick with Torah I have learned. This site is like a shiva house in some ways. Let the people in pain talk, try to say something supportive and inspirational and let in sink in. I try to tell people words I would like hearing so at least it is sincere. I know I won't convince everyone to see the world the way I do but that is not my goal. It is not necessary. There are so many ways to get closer to the truth and Hashem.

I guess just how I said Hashem has a plan for everyone that crosses your path, I am now someone that has crossed anyone's path who is reading anything I write so I am part of the master plan just like everyone else. Hashem has made anyone here decide to open this post so it must be for some reason. I think if everyone here realized how easily they can help or hurt someone on this site, they'd be more careful in posting hurtful things and maybe be a little more complimentary. I appreciate you saying this because it helps me realize that what I write may actually have an impact on someone positively. I am a quiet person IRL so this is actually quite a huge group of women who may hear my voice. Big enough for me! Especially when I hear from people who don't appreciate my posts...

southernbubby

Sun, Jan 14 2018, 4:00 pm

mandksima wrote:

I appreciate your posts. Maybe you can give shiurim in your neighborhood or write articles in local Jewish publications. For example, here we have the Detroit Jewish news which isn't a frum publication but sometimes frum people but in divrei Torah and op-eds. I am not saying that it is better than here but it may reach a different audience.