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amother
OP
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 Sun, Aug 11 2019, 11:21 am
In non kashrus related issues?
I live in the 5towns. It seems the vaad has informed the kosher supermarkets that they are not permitted to open today until chatzos. Obviously some aren't fasting today. Those that are fasting might find it more convenient to do there shopping earlier in the day. Either way I feel that the vaad should be there to make sure that the food is kosher. That's it. Don't get involved in hashkafa issues, and certainly don't try to impose your hashkafa on me. It ultimately makes an enormous chillul hashem in that many people will be talking about the chutzpah of these rabbi's trying to be the mafia and tell everyone what to do.
Is there another side to this argument I'm not seeing?
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ora_43
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Sun, Aug 11 2019, 11:24 am
It's a labor rights issue.
For the store to be certified kosher, there needs to be kosher supervision.
For there to be kosher supervision, there needs to be a supervisor working (at least in theory).
And it's better not to work before chatzot on Tisha B'Av if possible.
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amother
Pink
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Sun, Aug 11 2019, 11:37 am
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Agree that it's more likely related to the halacha of not working before chatzos. The mashgiach won't be working so the store can't be open. I don't think they're trying to dictate what the shoppers are doing.
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amother
OP
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Sun, Aug 11 2019, 11:46 am
| amother [ Pink ] wrote: | | Agree that it's more likely related to the halacha of not working before chatzos. The mashgiach won't be working so the store can't be open. I don't think they're trying to dictate what the shoppers are doing. |
Seriously? A few things. First of all the kosher supermarkets in the 5towns have all been open on tisha b'av morning the past 15 years. This issue of not opening till chatzos only started last year. So the idea that the mashgiach won't work till chatzos doesn't hold up because they've always worked in past years. Secondly, with all the heterim and figuring ways to get around everything, are we really stuck on this one? I mean I have my kids put on new clothes for 5 minutes right before the 9 days so that when they wear it during the 9 days it's not fresh anymore and becomes permissible. My sons very frum camp conveniently had several siyums last week so the entire camp can eat meat during the 9 days......But on this, we are stuck. We can't figure out how to get a mashgiach (the same one who worked the last 15 years) to work before chatzos on in nidcha tisha b'av. Not to mention the tircha of the dozens of shoppers who will be inconvenienced because they will shlep out to the store and only realize it's closed when the door won't open.
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groovy1224
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Sun, Aug 11 2019, 11:52 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | Seriously? A few things. First of all the kosher supermarkets in the 5towns have all been open on tisha b'av morning the past 15 years. This issue of not opening till chatzos only started last year. So the idea that the mashgiach won't work till chatzos doesn't hold up because they've always worked in past years. Secondly, with all the heterim and figuring ways to get around everything, are we really stuck on this one? I mean I have my kids put on new clothes for 5 minutes right before the 9 days so that when they wear it during the 9 days it's not fresh anymore and becomes permissible. My sons very frum camp conveniently had several siyums last week so the entire camp can eat meat during the 9 days......But on this, we are stuck. We can't figure out how to get a mashgiach (the same one who worked the last 15 years) to work before chatzos on in nidcha tisha b'av. Not to mention the tircha of the dozens of shoppers who will be inconvenienced because they will shlep out to the store and only realize it's closed when the door won't open. |
Maybe the mashgichim just don't want to go to work before chatzos so they asked for this?
I have no idea, but I really don't see the big deal. Tisha b'av is not about your comfort or convenience. It makes perfect sense to me for a Jewish business to be closed until chatzos.
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amother
Crimson
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Sun, Aug 11 2019, 11:54 am
| amother [ Pink ] wrote: | | Agree that it's more likely related to the halacha of not working before chatzos. The mashgiach won't be working so the store can't be open. I don't think they're trying to dictate what the shoppers are doing. |
If they leave all the fresh food/showcases closed until Chatzot and just have the prepackaged and frozen, and fruit/veggies available, they shouldn't even need the mashgiach-correct. They could easily avoid that issue anyway.
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amother
Periwinkle
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Sun, Aug 11 2019, 11:56 am
The 5 Towns Va'ad is known for doing things like this lately. There was a whole brouhaha about giving hashgacha to a sports bar a while back too.
They have a monopoly on hashgacha here unlike other heavily populated places where multiple rabbanim give hashgacha. They overreach because they can and don't have any competition or anyone to gainsay them.
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amother
Pink
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Sun, Aug 11 2019, 11:59 am
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Why don't you call the vaad and ask them directly?
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Rappel
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Sun, Aug 11 2019, 12:01 pm
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Hmmm...I know the Yalkut Yosef specifies that food sellers should not open before hatzot, since no one is supposed to be involved in preparing the break fast until after then anyway.
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ora_43
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Sun, Aug 11 2019, 12:15 pm
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | Seriously? A few things. First of all the kosher supermarkets in the 5towns have all been open on tisha b'av morning the past 15 years. This issue of not opening till chatzos only started last year. So the idea that the mashgiach won't work till chatzos doesn't hold up because they've always worked in past years. |
If minimum wage was $8/hr last year, should it be $8/hr this year?
The question isn't whether it's physically possible for them to work, but rather, should they have to work. Maybe conditions weren't good enough last year.
| Quote: | | But on this, we are stuck. We can't figure out how to get a mashgiach (the same one who worked the last 15 years) to work before chatzos on in nidcha tisha b'av. |
I do agree that kashrut groups getting involved in hashkafa can be a problem. I definitely wouldn't want the va'ad kashrut deciding, say, what music people can play in their store or how the waitresses in the restaurant dress.
But OTOH this seems to me like a fairly reasonable ask.
I'm not sure where the line is.
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notshanarishona
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Sun, Aug 11 2019, 12:42 pm
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It's definitely preferable for businesses not to be open on 9 av and if they have to , it should be after chatzot . If u r desperate for food you can go to a regular grocery store .
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amother
Seagreen
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Sun, Aug 11 2019, 1:00 pm
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Just because it was open the past 15 years, does it mean that it was the right thing? Or maybe they realized it’s better to stay closed until after chatzos? I don’t think that this should be an issue. I saw people making a big deal about it on Instagram too, I don’t get the big deal. It’s tisha bav! It’s not supposed to be a time to go to restaurants for food, no matter the reason. And yes, there are pregnant people and elderly people etc. But most people in that position prepare in advance or they can go to a regular grocery (not a restaurant) so that they are not stuck...why is this such a big deal to become upset about?
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amother
Goldenrod
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Sun, Aug 11 2019, 1:16 pm
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relax. so you waited till chatzos. its not about who is fasting. technically you should not be driving until chatzos anyhow. go to shoprite if you are that desperate for food.
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pause
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Sun, Aug 11 2019, 8:38 pm
I don't get it. Tisha B'av before chatzos should be like, um, like TISHA B'AV! You're meant to be actively mourning the churban, whether you're fasting or not. I don't see how you are allowed to go food shopping before chatzos.
And then to come on Imamother and post this, also before chatzos??? (Assuming you're in the Five Towns.)
If I sound judgy, it's because I'm shocked at such blatant disregard of the halachos of the day.
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amother
Brunette
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Sun, Aug 11 2019, 8:51 pm
| pause wrote: | I don't get it. Tisha B'av before chatzos should be like, um, like TISHA B'AV! You're meant to be actively mourning the churban, whether you're fasting or not. I don't see how you are allowed to go food shopping before chatzos.
And then to come on Imamother and post this, also before chatzos??? (Assuming you're in the Five Towns.)
If I sound judgy, it's because I'm shocked at such blatant disregard of the halachos of the day. |
Agree 100%
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amother
Papaya
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Sun, Aug 11 2019, 10:53 pm
I live in Lakewood and the grocery stores that I know of here only opened at chatzos today. Maybe it was only brought to their attention in the five towns last year that they shouldn’t be open in the morning. You may not like that they are following halacha but that’s not their problem. Ofcourse the stores should be following the Vaad. That’s their Rabbi.
There are halachos of what you can do on Tisha baav before chatzos and I can’t imagine someone would do their grocery shopping unless it was something they needed urgently. And no I was not fasting today if that matters
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momsrus
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Sun, Aug 11 2019, 11:08 pm
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It’s not hashkafa, it’s halacha. What exactly is your problem?
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amother
Yellow
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Sun, Aug 11 2019, 11:17 pm
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And even if you needed food urgently we have plenty of non Jewish grocery stores here in five towns that carry kosher food.
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amother
Peach
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Sun, Aug 11 2019, 11:18 pm
Wow... Some people have nothing to think about on 9av. How sad! I saw mlw design making a big deal on Instagram about this...I just rolled my eyes. 
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amother
Orange
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Sun, Aug 11 2019, 11:25 pm
| momsrus wrote: | | It’s not hashkafa, it’s halacha. What exactly is your problem? |
My problem is that you’re wrong. Per the OU:
| Quote: |
The Poskim say that whether one is permitted to work on Tisha B’Av is dependent upon the Minhag Hamakom. Nowadays as we live in mixed communities it is difficult to ascertain exactly the Minhag Hamakom in this regard. It would therefore appear that all work is permissible. Chazal, however, also tell us that anyone who works on Tisha B’Av will not see any good from it, and that one must try one’s best not to lose focus on the mourning of the Churban Beis Hamikdash. The logical thing to do, it would seem, would be to refrain from whatever work possible.
Chazal say that everywhere a Davar Ha’aveid (something that will cause a loss of money) is permissible. Partial loss of salary for missing work is considered by some authorities as Davar Ha’aveid. Hence one would be allowed to work in order to avoid such loss. However as most of us can probably take Tisha B’Av as a vacation or sick day, and such days are not a Davar Ha’aveid. In such a situation one should rather make Tisha B’Av an off day.
As the Ramah writes that the minhag Ashkenaz was not to work before Chatzos HaYom one should definitely try to put off work until at least after Chatzos.
Working purely for financial gain is Assur according to all. |
Each store should decide on its own, not be forced into something by a Vaad.
I don't fast well. By chatzot, I wasn’t feeling well. Within an hour, I was in bed. An hour after that, I was nauseated and crying in pain from a migraine. Please don’t tell me I can do things after chatzot. I cannot.
Edited for egregious grammatical error.
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