Completely separate or blended?

Motek

Sat, Feb 09 2008, 10:50 pm

Which do you think is optimal chinuch - keeping limudei kodesh and limudei chol completely separate or blending them?

An example would be in math, the examples would use Jewish items and culture: If the Klein family is traveling to their family in Winnipeg for Succos and the train is going 55 miles an hour ...

Or, if Learn Torah Yeshiva bought 15 new sefarim for their library and Mr. Goldberg died and left 55 sefarim to the yeshiva, how many new sefarim do they have?

grin

Sat, Feb 09 2008, 11:00 pm

of course the ideal situation would be learning geometry from rashi in masechos succos and ordinary math from counting how much each child's family would need to pay for hekdesh (and of masay), etc - and language skills from their tests in these subjects as well.
The main problems with this (other than "that's the way it's always been done"):
1 - we depend (wrongly) on non jews's textbooks
2 - our limudei kodesh teachers aren't equipped to teach these subjects as well as they should
I did hear of a woman who prepared such workbooks as you suggested - I don't know how much business she's gotten.

Lechatchila Ariber

Sat, Feb 09 2008, 11:02 pm

Motek wrote:

those examples don't really mean anything in terms of blending lemudei chodesh and chol unless you are actually learning something kodesh while learning chol.

Quote:

this sounds more like it.

Imaonwheels

Sat, Feb 09 2008, 11:38 pm

They should be learned serially. First the grounding in Torah. I don't think there exists a classic Torah source for the TT being parnassa preparation. They should always be taught in a manner that does not introduce any ideas against or questioning Torah and non jewish teztbooks should not be used.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe once told a science teacher from Kfar Chabad that what ever is printed in a book is considered true by most. She was telling the Rebbe that every year she would instruct the girls to ignore certain things in the govt text and when they wrote papers they still come in saying "The world is x million years old..."

Today there is no need to use non jewish textbooks. The excellent Israeli frum ones could be translated very easily.

You are right that in some communities the limudei cho; teachers aren't equipped. That also could be changed. In sem the girls who want to be math or science teachers should have to do work in those areas, incl preparing lessons for our kids. Veteran chol teachers could make workshops w/rabbonim.

grin

Sun, Feb 10 2008, 12:01 am

of course it could be changed - the Q is will ti and who's going to change the long-standing existing system??
(BTW, the frum Israeli schools only have their own texts for history.)

ffbmom

Sun, Feb 10 2008, 12:09 am

Even if it is not part of the curriculum, childrena lways learn more when connections are made. So, an exampleis learning about plants around Tu Bishvat (connect to sheva minim etc.), learning about both the English (solar)and the Jewish (lunar) months. This makes for a more exciting curriculum and for extensions for those very bright students. In order to fully integrate the two, you'd need to find a qualified teacher for both and that's not that simple.

TzenaRena

Sun, Feb 10 2008, 12:09 am

Motek wrote:

Quote:

example would be in math, the examples would use Jewish items and culture: If the Klein family is traveling to their family in Winnipeg for Succos and the train is going 55 miles an hour ...

Or, if Learn Torah Yeshiva bought 15 new sefarim for their library and Mr. Goldberg died and left 55 sefarim to the yeshiva, how many new sefarim do they have?

I don't think those math examples are a case of blending. It's still limudei chol, although with examples from Jewish everyday life, instead of non jewish culture, which is certainly more appropriate.

And I don't think actual blending is good, there should not be confusion about what is kodesh and what is chol. However, all things of chol - divrei ha'reshus, should be utilized in a way that infuses them with kedusha, so while being recognized as chol, they should be infused with kedusha - B'chol derochecho do'eihu .

Imaonwheels

Sun, Feb 10 2008, 12:31 am

rg wrote:

of course it could be changed - the Q is will ti and who's going to change the long-standing existing system??
(BTW, the frum Israeli schools only have their own texts for history.)

Not true. The frum text books for grammar and other language skills, English and math have been around so many years I bought them when my married kids were in school.

A company connected to Shas has been putting out excellent teva and science texts for elementary for the last 10 years. They are used in some Chabad and some mamads well. Another company put out a series of elem readers.

I collect the best for consulting and using their material.

In fact the history book used in most BY and the Y-m Chabad in HS is from the mamad/ed ministry and it is horrible.

Ruchel

Sun, Feb 10 2008, 7:42 am

Here, Jewish schools that want to deliver a recognized degree follow the regular cursus, with the regular books, so it's separated.
In many schools the chol teachers are non Jews, so it doesn't help either.

Motek

Sun, Feb 10 2008, 6:40 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

They were my examples and illustrated what I meant by blending! Wink

I am talking about a typical school with a typical English department where they may take state tests and they learn science, math, social studies, spelling, grammar, literature ...

Quote:

And I don't think actual blending is good, there should not be confusion about what is kodesh and what is chol. However, all things of chol - divrei ha'reshus, should be utilized in a way that infuses them with kedusha, so while being recognized as chol, they should be infused with kedusha - B'chol derochecho do'eihu .

Sounds contradictory because if you are infusing them with kedusha how is it separate - can you give an example?

Lechatchila Ariber

Sun, Feb 10 2008, 6:55 pm

Quote:

They were my examples and illustrated what I meant by blending!

Yeah but there really isn't anything of kodesh in them. Its just like telling a parve story and replacing all the names with jewish names. does that make it a jewish story?