Fascinating interview with the first French kalla teacher

Ruchel

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 11:06 am

I’m translating for you the “best” parts. It is really, really interesting. The lady is the rabbanit/rebbetzin Mireille Warschawski (née Metzger). Her husband R’ Max Warschawski was the chief rabbi of Strasbourg. Like most French rabbis he was just plain frum/Orthodox (not modern, not ultra). They had 7 children.

I don’t really know where to put it. It covers sooo many topics… Jewish history, shalom bayis, family purity, birth control, minhagim...

- what was your task as a wife of rabbi, about preparing the brides?

First you must realize it was a new area. When I got married [in 1948], the mothers taught the daughters about family purity. It was very complicated, because vocabulary was very restricted. There were words you just never used. Like, you didn’t say you had your period, you said you were unwell/indisposed. Being pregnant, having your period… all that… so, it was with a very restricted vocabulary that our mothers had to give us the sense and value of the miztvot.
“You will do that, then you will count that many days, then you check, then again 7 days, and then you go to the mikve and you do this and that”.
The mothers were as ashamed/ill at ease as the daughters.
Even me, when I started teaching brides, I had to learn to use words that would have been indecent (untznius) to me before.

In fact, I was think I was the first rabbi’s wife to receive the brides that my husband married. The previous one before me [rabbanit Marguerite Deutsch], when the bride was from a very observant family, she would give her discreetly a booklet to she can study it alone at home.

- at that time, the French rabbinate didn’t make you to learn family purity and go to the mikve like today?

Absolutely not. The first rabbi that demanded it was my husband. He wanted all brides, even those from secular parents, to learn and go to the mikve previous to the marriage. He told the brides to have an appointment with me.
One girl, from a totally assimilated background, complained about it, and my husband got phone calls telling him he couldn’t force people. He answered he just couldn’t marry her like this, but he was ready to leave the position of rabbi of the city to solve the problem.
That is how important it was to him.

After that, he didn’t go as far as asking a paper signed by the mikve matron.
[nowadays they do it]

- and what about the assimilated girl?

She gave in and went. And she told several people that she gained from learning and going.

- was there a traditional festivity around mikve going?

Absolutely not. At least, not among the Ashkenazim. Discretion was the key word. They even asked the mikve lady to open the mikve during the day, to be extremely discreet about going [for the wedding].

- who went to the mikve with the bride?

The mother, and the mikve lady.

- did many women go to mikve at that time?

Oh no. Although there were more daughters than mothers. But only when the North Africans arrived [after the Algeria war] were there many mikve goers.

- in 1976, when the actual mikve opened, did many girls knew about family purity from home?

They knew more than girls did when I grew up, for sure.
Mothers only taught of the theory/halacha, not really of all the values around, and the rhythm of family life. Waiting every month, like a new engagement and starting back of the marriage. Generally it is for the good of the couple.

- it seems that before the arrival of the North Africans, mikve was just something you did, in the French rite, without a lot of interest?

In Eastern Europe, mikve was the meeting place for men. By us it wasn’t done, to see others undressed. Men didn’t go often. My husband went for Yom Kippour.

As for women, my grandmother went in the river next her house. Even important communities like Colmar didn’t have a mikve! My aunt travelled here, to our house, every month, I didn’t understand why as a girl.

When we rebuilt the synagogue in 1958, we didn’t build a mikve. Not worth it, because so very few women went. It’s only when the North Africans arrived that we built one, in 1976.

- but some villages had a mikve

Yes. But often it didn’t work anymore because people didn’t go. My mother had to go 6 kilometers to find a working/kosher mikve, and they didn’t have a car…

- what happened when women had to space children?

Abstinence, at the time, was the only way. When it was needed, my husband told them to go to the mikve but not have relations for 3 or 4 days after. But some women pushed off the mikve altogether, because they were too tempted if they went. It was the only way at the time.

- who explained you, about relations?

My mother, when I got married. She explained me, very badly. She did what she could. I already knew it existed, more or less how it worked. I say “more or less”! but there was no way to talk about it, even with a mother. These things weren’t said.

- why didn’t she send you to the rabbanit?

Because it wasn’t the rabbanit’s task. She never taught brides.

- as the rabbanit, did you counsel couples on shalom bayis?

Not really. It was mostly my husband’s task. And anyway couples didn’t open up as easily as today. These things weren’t said and done. Very few people divorced, but it wasn’t because couples were happier. Just, not done. The non Jews didn’t do it, either.

- it is true that Jews were influenced by the society around.

For sure. This is why the North African women were so different in behaviour than us, because of where they grew up. Now though it is more and more mixed. But before, we all lived very differently, very influenced by how we grew up.

- how did couples deal with their conflicts?

They shut up. Some things aren’t to be said. We bore it. We swallowed it. Especially the non working spouse, which was almost always the woman.

- but the young girls in the 20’s learned a job?

Yes, in case they didn’t get married. I learned piano as a teenager. My parents said, so if I remain single and have to make a living, I can be a piano teacher.

- how come frum Jews could envision this possibility of remaining single for you?

Because it existed. My mother had 5 sisters, 3 unmarried. One of these three got married after the war, when she was already older. I also had male relatives who didn’t get married, to take care of their parents.

- how did people meet in your parents’ time? Shidduchim?

I never dared asking her how she met Dad!

- not daring?

Oh no… it was not done! And I never thought of it really, it was so natural. Their villages were so close.

- but did shadchanim exist?

It always existed. I don’t think there were many love marriages. First, we didn’t talk of love. It was a shameful word.

- in your mother’s time?

Even in mine. People talked of a love marriage as something totally exceptional.

- how come it was so unromantic? Movies already existed, even frum families read literature…

Exactly. It was literature!

- by the way, I know there was balls, where boys and girls danced together!

Of course. Always for Simchat Torah and Pourim. Balls were allowed here. I know other communities don’t.
[my grandmother went to similar balls, often for tzedaka purposes, and met my grandfather there]

- you told me more daughters than mothers went to the mikve. Why?

Education!
[her husband instituted the weekly Talmud Torah in the city not only for boys but for girls, as Jewish education, or in complement for those who attended the Jewish school]

Maya

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 11:59 am

Very interesting to see how life was so different than nowadays. Thanks for posting it.

Motek

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 6:44 pm

interesting, thanks ruchel

Lechatchila Ariber

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 7:06 pm

it is interesting. Thanks for taking the time to translate that Ruchel.

What I'm not understanding though is that if the situation was such that mothers were explaining it inadequately to their daughters then how come generations of yidden still managed to carry on and keep TH and teach it to their children? Is she referring to a particular period in time?

Ruchel

Mon, Feb 25 2008, 7:33 am

Esti, she probably speaks of a time when people were more "refined" than before, when life was so hard that people were probably not so sensitive. But I suppose, talking to my grandmother for example, that daughters were taught often with mistakes. Probably not mistakes making the tevila unkosher (although I have heard of older women not taught to do bedikos!), but all kinds of weird beliefs like a nidda woman shouldn't light shabbes candles/wash herself/cook certain foods/go to shul...

I also suppose what was really really badly explained was relations, more than th.

sunnybrook

Mon, Feb 25 2008, 8:18 am

If this system made it so hard on adjusting to married life, why did everyone perpetuate it? Rolling Eyes

I cant figure that out. Must be some reason they continued to do it to their kids.

Ruchel

Mon, Feb 25 2008, 8:21 am

I suppose people questioned things less, so they thought it was normal. They changed it because of brides not keeping th, explaining relations came with it but it wasn't the primary goal. But apparently before her, no one ever thought it was the rebbetzin's job.

Lechatchila Ariber

Mon, Feb 25 2008, 3:47 pm

I still don't get it.

I don't see why it should be the Rebbetzin's job, I don't understand why the mother daughter system failed. What

obviously it was needed and that's why she did it, I'm not questioning that.
I simply can't understand why the mother daughter system was not working well.

Ruchel

Mon, Feb 25 2008, 3:48 pm

I don't know... maybe it was too awkward, especially the relations part...

Zus

Tue, Feb 26 2008, 9:38 am

I think it failed because of the lack of communication that existed between mother and daughter (and perhaps in society in general) regarding intimate topics. In orde to explain TH and intimacy properly, you *must* name certain things by their proper names, and don't refer to them as 'those things', 'down there' and so on.
I think that times changed, and open communication between rebbeztin and pupil was more called for than between mother and daughter.
I mean, what is the reason nowadays that kallahs go to kallah classes in stead of learning with their mothers? This is a universal thing, it's not only like that in France.

Oh and thanks Ruchel for posting Mr. Green

amother

Tue, Feb 26 2008, 10:13 am

Ruchel v.interesting. When did she start teaching Kallos? Was it before the mikvah was built in 1976 or only after?

Tue, Feb 26 2008, 10:24 am

Ruchel, where did u get this interview from?
I'd like to add, as an ex-member of Strasbourg's community, that the Warshawski couple were a major reference in education issues there. They wrote the very first "children's bible" and Mrs Warshawski also founded the Bat Mitsva classes which until today proved to be a faucet for the building of the commnity. During 10 months girls from all the ranges of judaism would meet, get some classes in halacha, tefila, history... would prepare a shabat, go away for a week-end (koshering a kitchen etc) and build their first contact with the community, the rabbis' wives...
They retired and made alya in 1987, Rabbi Warshawski passed away a couple of years ago.

Ruchel

Tue, Feb 26 2008, 10:35 am

in 1960, when her husband became in charge of the city.

ZZ I heard that the rabbi passed away, but the rabbanit is still alive, right? I always find fascinating to read about the community leaders.

Ruchel

Tue, Feb 26 2008, 10:37 am

I've read the first infos on this in a booklet on th edited by the French rabinate, and I googled some of it to see what would come up, that's how I found.

Tue, Feb 26 2008, 10:44 am

Yes she is, she lives in Jerusalem.
It's interesting though this issue about the transmission "broken chain" as the jews of the area of Alsace were always observant (I'm talking of pre-war time). I think that the weak link was the generation after the war, and Rabbi Deutch (the one before R. Warshawski) made some massive efforts to restore education.

Ruchel

Tue, Feb 26 2008, 11:04 am

Other interesting interview of the same lady. I'm also translating the most interesting parts, because it would be much too long!

Shabbes in the old times

- how did your community [she lived in a small out of town community] live its Judaism?

My mother and my sisters went to the town school, which was led by nuns. I don't know if they skipped school on shabbes, or if they didn't write [both were classics and still are for frum children in public school]. In some towns, the boys only started school on shabbes at 10 am, so they could attend the office.
In my town there was no rabbi, just a hazan [like in mine lol], and he also took care of the shechita.

- so he wasn't really the spiritual guide for the community?

At this time [before WW2] people didn't deal with halacha. We didn't ask questions to the rabbi! Tradition was transmitted from father to son and mother to daughter, and every person followed spontaneously, as he saw fit.

- but a Jew coming from somewhere else [the interviewer probably means a community with more education and more facilities, as the problem here wasn't a low level of frumkeit] would have found it not strict enough?

Yes. Today this kashrus wouldnt have been accepted; for example the butcher opened his shop on shabbes! some shops were opened too. But the majority of the Jews didn't work on shabbes.

We ate all the cheese and we didn't pay much attention to the wine. Often we drank any wine during the week, but made kiddush on kosher wine.

There was no organ in the synagogue, we couldn't afford one. But we had a mixed choir! My aunts, in all good faith, sang in the choir, while "in town" [she means in a big, more educated community] it would have been seen as going against the traditions.

But the peopleof my community would have been very surprised to be criticized, they thought of themselves as good Jews, attached to their customs, and observing them faithfully and with common sense.

- what about shabbes?

We never heard of an eruv, to be able to carry the objects out of the house. On Friday night, we went to the synagogue and then had a family meal. We wore our best clothes. Married women wore elegant hats to the synagogue and when they went out on shabbes, but we totally ignored the laws of covering your hair after marriage.

Even for men, a head covering wasn't an absolute obligation. Men put on a cap to pray, and took it off after. At the table they wore it for blessings, washing hands... took it off during the meal, and put it back for the prayer after the meal, as well as for kiddush.

The shabbes [gentile] came to make a fire to warm up the house and the meal (cooked on Friday). Most of the time it was a woman. But at my grandfather it was our neighbour, a rich merchant, who did this for us freely, as a friend. It must be said that most Jews would never have touched to the fire on shabbes... but they turned on the light! [I will have to find more on this, I didn't know they used the electricity!]

On shabbes afternoon, men played cards at the town's bar, but of course not for money. They came back to pay what they ordered after shabbes. Women took walks, visited each other... children read or played dominos. At this time we didn't try to occupy them.

Saturday night, even after the end of shabbes, women didn't knit or sew. It was seen as making the holy day longer, and also allowed them to push off these annoying works for the day after in all good faith...

Ruchel

Tue, Feb 26 2008, 11:05 am

zz wrote:

yes definitely the weak link was caused by the war. In all Europe I think.

LibraMommy

Tue, Feb 26 2008, 12:05 pm

Very interesting.

Ruchel

Tue, Feb 26 2008, 7:26 pm

thanks

Tefila

Tue, Feb 26 2008, 8:12 pm

Very interesting thanks Smile