Two daughters, sticky situation

amother

Teal

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:21 am

OP, I'm wondering what the BIL's relationship is like with DD2? Have you had them for Shabbos at your place often, so that they're used to each other? Does DD2 help out with the baby? I feel like we're missing some big picture info. In our family, there's kind of a casual but respectful jokey sibling-type relationship between BILs and SILs. What is it like among your children, and could that be contributing to this dynamic?

amother

Cornsilk

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:23 am

[quote="amother Cornsilk"]Reserved the relative first?! What. The . Heck ? How old are we ? Who are they to decide who the relative should have as a guest for shabbos.? If older sister isn't happy with the other guests then she shouldn't go for shabbos. She doesn't get to disinvite someone else's guest . What nerve . She's not the one hosting she doesn't get to decide who comes!

amother

Viola

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:24 am

One of my sisters did something similar to me recently on a family sisters vacation… she is a bully and very selfish… it nearly broke me. It was so painful and it changed the family dynamics completely. I’ve since cut off from her and the fact that my mother couldn’t openly defend me had made me step away from her and really cooled our relationship. The older sister won’t stop at this. Believe me, I’ve been through this. This will go on for years in many different ways and the more the younger sister gives in the more emboldened the older one will get especially if mom excuses it and stays quiet. This is not ok.

Please help your younger daughter get stronger and perhaps see a therapist to learn how to deal with her sisters bullying behavior.

Hurting her sister is going against vahavta lreiacha kamocha.

amother

Cornsilk

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:28 am

Younger sister should not give in. She should go for shabbos . Older sister has no right to decide who her relative should host. Poor younger sister has been quietly been bullied by older sister for years. Time for younger sister to put her foot down and not give in to older sisters demands. She should go for shabbos. If older sister isn't happy let her make other arrangements.

CPenzias

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:38 am

Chayalle wrote:

She might not be lying, but it's quite possible what what SIL means by a quiet Shabbos is one where his wife is not stressed, which seems to be happening when she's around younger sister.
So the problem is the relationship, and it sounds like there's work to do to fix that, because what's going on is a bit ridiculous, and hurtful.

I agree

CPenzias

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:40 am

amother Ivory wrote:

So older daughter can just find a dif place to stay at

That would be hurtful too because younger sister would feel like older sister is going somewhere else to avoid her

Chayalle

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:55 am

There are times when I won't invite certain guests together. Like, I have a certain relative who can be very domineering and annoying. She recently asked to come for Shabbos when my new couple was coming, and I said this week doesn't work (I hosted them the following week). I feel like when DD and her new husband come, we want to give them our fullest attention, and make it fully positive. But we are not talking about her sister here. Not a first degree relative, where you have to accept and work on the relationship.
OP what's it like when couple comes to you for Shabbos?

seeker

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 12:06 pm

amother Hotpink wrote:

We are calling her sensistive because OP said she is a sensitive type. OP, are you more like DD1 or DD2? You say that DD1 seems to be annoyed by DD2, but she's not the annoying type. Some people's personalities just clash, or they are annoyed by something other people wouldn't be and that's that. I have a kid who would not want to spend time with the sibling that is constantly wanting to shower them with attention and talk about their life- this kid would rather be very private and have way less conversation. Maybe one sibling can't deal with how another is always talking about a specicifc interest that seems to take over. Or a speech pattern. Or a smell. There are a lot of possibilities. Maybe if dd2 is the sensitive type, she sees reciprocation of her acts to dd as needing to be something that dd1 doesn't come by naturally.

She said they live in a different city. A different CITY. And the younger sister is coming for Shabbos. Whatever it is that the sibling is doing that is annoying or upsetting, you can live with it for a day. And if you really can't, you stay home.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 1:14 pm

amother OP wrote:

I have a sensitive situation. I'm wondering if anyone has any insight.

I have two daughters who have always had somewhat of a complicated relationship.
They are both wonderful people, but have very different natures. They are two years apart.

The younger sister always felt that the older sister did not like her. She confided in me that in school, she would always see other older sisters being nice to their younger sisters in her grade, whereas her older sister always "snobbed her out".

The younger sister is the sensitive type who will make welcome home signs for her older sister when she came back from seminary or camp. She would prepare her favorite foods and go all out to show she cares. She always feels that her love is not appreciated or even acknowledged. She always wished her older sister would call her, or confide in her.

I think my older daughter found her sister somewhat annoying at times, though I'm not sure why, since she is not an annoying type.

My older daughter is now married and out of the house. She lives in another city. She had plans to go to a relative for Shabbos. It just so happens that my younger daughter had plans to be in that city for Shabbos and made plans to stay with the same relative over shabbos. When she heard that her older sister would also be there (with her husband and baby) she was excited but worried that her sister would not want her there.

Sure enough, when my older daughter heard that her sister was planning to be there for Shabbos, she texted her about it.
Younger sister asked her straight out, "You don't want me there? If not, just let me know, I'll find another place to go."

Older sister said she will think about it.
She got back to her the next day saying that she would prefer if she goes to another relative for Shabbos, since she was hoping for a "quiet" Shabbos. We have plenty of other relatives she could go to for Shabbos in that city.

Understandably, younger sister is extremely hurt.

I don't like to mix in to these relationships, especially since my older daughter is married. But I was really perplexed about the situation. I was not understanding what makes my older daughter think she can tell her younger sister not to go to to a relative, at which she will be a guest as well.

So I called her and asked her. She said that it's her husband who prefers to have a "quiet shabbos" and somehow would feel a bit uncomfortable having his sister in law there for shabbos.

So, while my older daughter feels bad, she felt a bit torn between her husband and sister's feelings. And being that her sister offered to not go if she wasn't wanted, she felt it was okay to tell her better not.

As a mother, I don't want to c"v do or say anything that would put my daughter in an uncomfortable situation with her husband. At the same time, the only reason younger sister is taking this so badly is because it's riding on years of emotional pain where she felt rejected by her sister. I don't think she has to tell her younger sister that it's really her husband who prefers she isn't there, but at the same time, letting her know that it's not personal between them too will take away some of the sting.

Just wondering if others have dealt with a similar situation.
Should the younger sister go anyway, even after being told she wasn't wanted? Or should she rather go to another relative? Should older sister tell her husband he doesn't get to decide who else is a guest at their host's house?

Just to clarify, her husband is a big baal middos, not a selfish person at all. And obviously I don't really know what he really thinks, but this is the information I have.

This sounds like a situation that has been going on for a while, I wouldnt get involved but your younger dtr needs a lot of empathy from you.

I dont buy the whole "need a quiet Shabbos", its never a quiet Shabbos when you go away to relatives but putting that aside, you cant force your older dtr to be a good big sister anymore. She is married and has to live her life. (I also dont buy the whole - its my husband and not me, but agains thats not here nor there, they dont want her, and will avoid her at all costs for whatever their reasons are.)

Yes others have dealt with this by offering the younger counseling how to handle the rejection from her older sister.

Please dont get involved. It wont end well. Your getting involved will make the situation worse.

Your younger dtr needs support, its not fun to be unwanted by your older sister. And she has to decide (by herself) what she wants to do - to go, and stick to her original plans or force herself on her sister.

B'Syata D'Shmya

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 1:19 pm

amother OP wrote:

I don't know if she is jealous. I simply can't understand it. And there is no valid reason for them to be mean.

In my older dd's defense, I think she thought the offer to stay away was genuine and she felt that she needs to put her husband's feelings first. Maybe she didn't realize how much it would hurt her younger sister. I think she thinks she's overly sensitive.

I don't get why her husband even contemplated the question of disinviting his sister in law.

As a mother, I have tried, over the years to get my older daughter to realize how she is hurting her younger sister. I don't think she meant it on purpose, but for some reason just was never able to reciprocate the warmth to her younger sister.

You did your best, now leave it in their hands. You are not responsible for their relationship, let it take its course, and you may be pleasantly surprised in the future. For now, your younger dtr needs your empathy (all big sisters arent always welcoming) and perhaps to speak to someone about this so she deals with her sensitivity.

lamplighter

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 1:58 pm

Im team "older DD is lying". I don't buy the husband story for a second. It's an easy excuse because everyone know sholom bayis trumps all.

She is acting like a mean bully and the younger DD is so desperate for her approval she's offering to give her space.

I think you should have a frank conversation with your younger daughter. There is nothing she is doing or can do to make her older sister like her more, she is wonderful exactly as she is and it's up to the older DD to come to her senses. I would emphasize not bending herself into a pretzel and to assert herself more ex. Not doing all these favors that she just ends up hurt because of. Offer for her to go to therapy to work on how to navigate this relationship.

Sorry but do not support this obnoxious behavior from your older DD. I don't care what others say, there arent two sides to this story. You can very well tell your older DD that her treatment of her younger sister is deplorable and painful. You hope that at this age she can figure out ways to treat her sister better.

You can't make her be nice but you can very well express your disapproval.

Last edited by lamplighter on Thu, Feb 22 2024, 7:22 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Oleander

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 2:08 pm

Op what is your relationship with DD1?

Could you have an open an honest conversation with her, nothing to do with this shabbos but explain who from the outside you can see there is some friction and unease in the relationship eith her sister and as a mother you would love to pay for therapy to help work it through together? Put it on you, that it's hard for you to see your daughters like this...

tichellady

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 2:10 pm

If I understand what you are saying correctly, I think you should call older sister, tell her you know her intentions were good and she wasn’t trying to hurt her sister but she did hurt her and now she needs to figure out how to repair that. You can tell her that no one actually means that they want to be uninvited even if they are offering. You can say that you know sister dynamics are tough and there may be history you don’t know about and you aren’t blaming but you want to make sure there aren’t any hard feelings

amother

Lilac

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 2:12 pm

lamplighter wrote:

Im team "older DD is lying". I don't buy the husband story for a second. It's an easy excuse because everyone know sholom bayis trumps all. She is acting like a mean bully and the younger DD is so desperate for her approval she's offering to give her space. I think you should have a frank conversation with your younger daughter. There is nothing she is doing or can do to make her older sister like her more, she is wonderful exactly as she is and it's up to the older DD to come to her senses. I would emphasize not bending herself into a pretzel and to assert herself more ex. Not doing all these favors that she just ends up hurt because of. Offer for her to go to therapy to work on how to navigate this relationship. Sorry but do not support this obnoxious behavior from your older DD. I don't care what others say, there arent two sides to this story. You can very well tell your older DD that her treatment of her younger sister is deplorable and painful. You hope that at this age she can figure out ways to treat her sister better.
You can't make her be nice but you can very well express your disapproval.

I think this sums it up really well.

zaq

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 3:34 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Your situation is not remotely comparable, because YOU as the host are deciding for yourself not to bring together incompatible people. No one is telling you "if you want me to come, you can't have your DD's family too." Even if this relative were your own mother, you would still be the one deciding whom to host when and with (or without) whom.

zaq

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 3:46 pm

amother OP wrote:

As a mother, I have tried, over the years to get my older daughter to realize how she is hurting her younger sister. I don't think she meant it on purpose, but for some reason just was never able to reciprocate the warmth to her younger sister.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your elder dd is not merely "not able to reciprocate warmth". She is spiteful, mean and rude. Don't confuse the two.

amother

Darkblue

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 3:56 pm

I feel that it's important to show empathy for your younger dd and for the older one- also validate whatever is triggering her/making her insecure etc
But this coping mechanism of hers - bullying her sister and treating her really poorly should be called out- kindly

Chayalle

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 4:08 pm

lamplighter wrote:

Im team "older DD is lying". I don't buy the husband story for a second. It's an easy excuse because everyone know sholom bayis trumps all. She is acting like a mean bully and the younger DD is so desperate for her approval she's offering to give her space. I think you should have a frank conversation with your younger daughter. There is nothing she is doing or can do to make her older sister like her more, she is wonderful exactly as she is and it's up to the older DD to come to her senses. I would emphasize not bending herself into a pretzel and to assert herself more ex. Not doing all these favors that she just ends up hurt because of. Offer for her to go to therapy to work on how to navigate this relationship. Sorry but do not support this obnoxious behavior from your older DD. I don't care what others say, there arent two sides to this story. You can very well tell your older DD that her treatment of her younger sister is deplorable and painful. You hope that at this age she can figure out ways to treat her sister better.
You can't make her be nice but you can very well express your disapproval.

I agree with this post except for the lying, which could be true even if related to the situation, as I posted earlier.

But this post also highlights the fact that there's a dance in every relationship, and when unhealthy, need work on both sides.
I think your younger daughter needs to learn boundaries on her end, because her giving in to her older sister is not healthy either, even if it comes from a kindly place. She needs to learn to stick up for herself, and live her own life. I don't think she had to give up this Shabbos place at relative, not to accommodate older sister, and not to accommodate BIL - she's not married to him and his need for "quiet" is not her problem.

amother

Lemonchiffon

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 4:45 pm

I get the sense that the older sister expected the younger one to give in, as usual.
The younger one needs to learn about not being a people pleaser at her own expense. This would go much farther to her long term benefit.
Perhaps there is a way to make the older sister aware of the behavior patterns so she can recognize them and consider changing her ways.

No one I know goes to a relative for a quiet shabbos. Quiet shabbos means at home with no guests and simple food.

gold2

Thu, Feb 22 2024, 3:37 am

Sure enough, when my older daughter heard that her sister was planning to be there for Shabbos, she texted her about it.
Younger sister asked her straight out, "You don't want me there? If not, just let me know, I'll find another place to go."

This part shouts out at me. Its sounds like the younger one needs approval from her and is asking for permission and validation from the older one that she is loved which unfortunately seems not to be happening. I don't have any advice but she didn't need her older sister's permission and she shouldn't have to ask for it. She was probably asking for her sister to say "oh amazing I can't wait to spend time together" Maybe the younger one can go to a therapist to learn how to deal with the relationship not to blame her just for some self awareness and to learn to let go a bit and to have a healthier relationship and expectations