Two daughters, sticky situation

amother

Nasturtium

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 9:23 pm

amother Magnolia wrote:

Its very confusing how it's written. I feel like posts are addressing 2 different scenarios.

If younger dd did a tag along, like she invited herself to the same relative after she knew her older sister might go there, no, sorry. Older one is entitled to visit herself without it becoming a "group" thing.

If older dd was invited second, then its no business of hers that younger dd is going too.

They both made plans to go to the same city without knowing about each others plans.

When young dd called up relative about staying there they mentioned that older dd would be there also. So yes she asked first, but younger dd didn't have any idea about it until she asked also.

amother

Calendula

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 9:36 pm

amother Pearl wrote:

I think that this ship has sailed, at least where you're concerned.

I'm sorry, this is between the two of them. Maybe an objective outsider could help, could be Aharon Hakohen and bring peace between them. But not a mother.

When they were growing up was the time that you could have "parented" your older daughter and guided her in a more direct way. Not now. With all those years of baggage, after all those years that I'm sure you've tried to help, it's time to focus on your relationship with each child and try not to worry so much about their relationship with each other.

I have a teenager who always had a rough relationship with a younger (now also teenage) sibling. We worked SO hard on it. B"H now, through no direct correlation to the efforts that we put in, they get along well.

That same teenager (who is challenging in general, although a great kid) still has a tough relationship with a different younger sibling, now a preteen. It's not as bad as it used to be, but one still feels very threatened by the other, through no reason that we parents can see. There's a limit to how much we can help with this. I wouldn't be surprised if they will grow to adulthood and still have this issue. At which point I really think, as I said, that the ship will have sailed. If an entire childhood of hearing messages from us hasn't allowed them to sink in, then it's not going to happen when they're in their twenties.

I actually have a rough relationship with one of my siblings and their spouse. Our personalities clash majorly. We never fought as kids, actually, but as adults, the sibling and their spouse push every button (probably most of them unintentionally) that I possess. I grit my teeth and bear it when I"m in the same place as them. But I feel miserable the whole time. Honestly, if I had my choice, I'd avoid being with them too. If we're both at my parents for Shabbos, it's not at all an enjoyable Shabbos. It's like hearing nails on a chalkboard the entire Shabbos and not being able to get away from them.

Honestly, my dh doesn't like spending time with them either...mostly because he sees how miserable it makes me. So maybe that's the reason that the older daughter's husband doesn't want them there. Mine would never say that, I'd just grin and bear it, but it's really an awful experience...

In short, obviously your older daughter should "grow up." But I think that any input from you, to either daughter, will only backfire.

Can you share some things you did that helped?

amother

Blonde

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 10:14 am

I'm so sad for your younger daughter.
I feel like I would have a frank discussion with your older daughter: " Sarah, did you know what Rivka's immediate reaction was when she heard that you were also coming for Shabbos? She thought 'Oh no, Sarah is not going to want me to be there with her.' And when she asked you, you just confirmed that you don't want her around for just a Shabbos, even when someone else is hosting. You really hurt her."

amother

Blonde

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 10:15 am

amother Blonde wrote:

Disclaimer: I don't have kids anywhere near that age. So take everything I said with a huge shovel of salt.

amother

Ecru

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 10:33 am

Look your role as a mother is to support each child individually.

So the younger daughter needs validation on how painful it is to be rejected, reassurance that she isn't doing anything wrong, that she is loveable and liked, and to help her understand that many times married couples have other things going on that they can't share.

With the older daughter I wouldn't address the shabbos any further, but at a different point I would make her aware of how sensitive her sister is to her. She may think that the past is in the past and not realize how hard every rejection hits.
It is also possible she has her side to why the younger sister annoys her and they may be valid, but ignoring and avoiding isn't the way to handle it, and if you have an issue there are ways to address it.

seeker

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 10:38 am

Why are people even calling the younger one sensitive? Even for a person with above average pain tolerance, the way the older sister is acting is terrible. I'm a big fan of DLKZ but the posts looking for ways to excuse her behavior feel to me almost like enabling an abuser. Who talks this way? A 6th grade bully maybe but then we hope to set them straight and certainly don't expect them to be talking the same way at 20.

Chayalle

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 10:57 am

Strange situation really.
I was thinking I could parallel this - I have a newly married daughter BH (no baby yet), a daughter 3 years younger than older DD, and relatives they are close to. BH my girls have a great relationship (older DD has been mentioning wanting her sisters for Shabbos, etc...they sometimes hang out together at DD's apartment before SIL gets home, cook together.....) but for example, I have a younger sister who is closer to my girls' ages than mine, and they are both very close to her, she is like a big sister. There have been times when older daughter went to my sister without her younger sister - wanting her aunt's time and attention and perhaps, opinion on something she was going thru - and privacy. But she was open about it with younger sister respecting that need, and there were no issues.

The problem here is the relationship, and even if it's your SIL that doesn't want younger sister there, it sounds like it may be a symptom of your daughters' relationship extending now to her husband. (Like, I doubt my SIL could care less if my younger daughter were around...because he has gotten positive vibes about her from his wife.) And that is something that needs addressing. BEH your younger daughter will get married and have a husband, and you want the relationship between both couples IYH to be healthy and ok.

chocpretzel

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 10:58 am

OP why are you so keen on believing your older DD that it is her husband? Not that that would excuse the behavior anyway more but it seems to me that you take whatever DD1 says to you at face value even though when one is confronted they usually try to make themselves look less guilty.

I don’t know if I’m reading between the lines correctly but I’m understanding that in the past whenever DD1 was confronted about the way she treated DD2, she just had to give you a justifiable reason of why she is acting the way she is to DD2 and you accepted it even though you were bothered by the whole situation.

DD1 has to be taught how to deal with uncomfortable situations with sensitivity to others.

amother

Hotpink

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:01 am

We are calling her sensistive because OP said she is a sensitive type. OP, are you more like DD1 or DD2? You say that DD1 seems to be annoyed by DD2, but she's not the annoying type. Some people's personalities just clash, or they are annoyed by something other people wouldn't be and that's that. I have a kid who would not want to spend time with the sibling that is constantly wanting to shower them with attention and talk about their life- this kid would rather be very private and have way less conversation. Maybe one sibling can't deal with how another is always talking about a specicifc interest that seems to take over. Or a speech pattern. Or a smell. There are a lot of possibilities. Maybe if dd2 is the sensitive type, she sees reciprocation of her acts to dd as needing to be something that dd1 doesn't come by naturally.

amother

Viola

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:08 am

amother OP wrote:

I have a sensitive situation. I'm wondering if anyone has any insight.

I have two daughters who have always had somewhat of a complicated relationship.
They are both wonderful people, but have very different natures. They are two years apart.

The younger sister always felt that the older sister did not like her. She confided in me that in school, she would always see other older sisters being nice to their younger sisters in her grade, whereas her older sister always "snobbed her out".

The younger sister is the sensitive type who will make welcome home signs for her older sister when she came back from seminary or camp. She would prepare her favorite foods and go all out to show she cares. She always feels that her love is not appreciated or even acknowledged. She always wished her older sister would call her, or confide in her.

I think my older daughter found her sister somewhat annoying at times, though I'm not sure why, since she is not an annoying type.

My older daughter is now married and out of the house. She lives in another city. She had plans to go to a relative for Shabbos. It just so happens that my younger daughter had plans to be in that city for Shabbos and made plans to stay with the same relative over shabbos. When she heard that her older sister would also be there (with her husband and baby) she was excited but worried that her sister would not want her there.

Sure enough, when my older daughter heard that her sister was planning to be there for Shabbos, she texted her about it.
Younger sister asked her straight out, "You don't want me there? If not, just let me know, I'll find another place to go."

Older sister said she will think about it.
She got back to her the next day saying that she would prefer if she goes to another relative for Shabbos, since she was hoping for a "quiet" Shabbos. We have plenty of other relatives she could go to for Shabbos in that city.

Understandably, younger sister is extremely hurt.

I don't like to mix in to these relationships, especially since my older daughter is married. But I was really perplexed about the situation. I was not understanding what makes my older daughter think she can tell her younger sister not to go to to a relative, at which she will be a guest as well.

So I called her and asked her. She said that it's her husband who prefers to have a "quiet shabbos" and somehow would feel a bit uncomfortable having his sister in law there for shabbos.

So, while my older daughter feels bad, she felt a bit torn between her husband and sister's feelings. And being that her sister offered to not go if she wasn't wanted, she felt it was okay to tell her better not.

As a mother, I don't want to c"v do or say anything that would put my daughter in an uncomfortable situation with her husband. At the same time, the only reason younger sister is taking this so badly is because it's riding on years of emotional pain where she felt rejected by her sister. I don't think she has to tell her younger sister that it's really her husband who prefers she isn't there, but at the same time, letting her know that it's not personal between them too will take away some of the sting.

Just wondering if others have dealt with a similar situation.
Should the younger sister go anyway, even after being told she wasn't wanted? Or should she rather go to another relative? Should older sister tell her husband he doesn't get to decide who else is a guest at their host's house?

Just to clarify, her husband is a big baal middos, not a selfish person at all. And obviously I don't really know what he really thinks, but this is the information I have.

The younger sister should 100% go. The older sister is being selfish and controlling. This behavior and ostracism will affect the younger sisters self esteem which can affect her in the type of man she chooses to marry. Always being made to feel unwanted and not cared for by her sister is a horrible feeling and can have an impact on her self esteem. She might start thinking that After all it’s her sister and if her own sister acts like she is a nuisance than perhaps there is something wrong with her…

What does it mean a quiet shabbos??? One girl isn’t making the shabbos less quiet.

There is no justification for selfish behavior and just because she has a husband doesn’t give her this right… as the mother you need to defend your daughter so she knows she has you and that you care and understand her.

amother

Teal

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:08 am

They're not little girls anymore. DD1 is married with a husband, and the couple relationship comes first. They also reserved the relative first. So I understand DD1.

On the other hand, going to someone else for Shabbos, IDK if they have a right to dictate who the other guests are allowed to be. If they want privacy, they should stay home.

DD2 should not have offered not to go if she would feel hurt. Once she made the offer, it becomes a possibility.

You can explain to DD1 that this is a big sacrifice on DD2's part, and she should express her appreciation and make it up to her somehow.

Another way is for DD2 to retract her offer, DD1 to tell SIL that she misunderstood and DD2 will be there for Shabbos, and that if they want privacy they need to stay home or go somewhere else.

CPenzias

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:08 am

seeker wrote:

I'm so confused... If the husband wants a quiet shabbos, wouldn't that mean staying at home rather than going to this mutual relative? I would have a very hard time not giving older daughter a tongue lashing (granted, maybe I'm just harsh like that.) If she doesn't want to be at the same relative as younger sister, then let her make different plans, who is she to tell younger sister where to go if the host apparently already invited both of them?

I feel the same way as you.
I also think older dd is lying and putting the blame on her husband. That's a really horrible thing to do too because he's a new bil and she's creating ill feelings.

Chayalle

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:15 am

CPenzias wrote:

I feel the same way as you.
I also think older dd is lying and putting the blame on her husband. That's a really horrible thing to do too because he's a new bil and she's creating ill feelings.

She might not be lying, but it's quite possible what what SIL means by a quiet Shabbos is one where his wife is not stressed, which seems to be happening when she's around younger sister.
So the problem is the relationship, and it sounds like there's work to do to fix that, because what's going on is a bit ridiculous, and hurtful.

imasinger

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:16 am

amother Blonde wrote:

No disclaimers necessary, I was about to post something along the same lines.

I'd add, perhaps follow it up with, "it's done now, but do you have any ideas of things you might do to let Rivka know you care about her? What are they? How about if you plan to do them?"

amother

Viola

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:18 am

CPenzias wrote:

I feel the same way as you.
I also think older dd is lying and putting the blame on her husband. That's a really horrible thing to do too because he's a new bil and she's creating ill feelings.

I totally agree! That was my impression too… lying and using the husband as an excuse… the younger sister can’t start up with her BIL and everyone would expect her to step aside for the sake of Shalom bayis… son not nice..

amother

Cornsilk

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:18 am

seeker wrote:

Exactly !! Older sister sounds like a mean bully. There is no reason in the world why she can't spend shabbos together with her younger sister. It's not her house it's a relatives house and she doesn't get to decide who can come for shabbos . Unless younger sister is mentally not well and very socially off. Even then it's her freaking sister!! She can't spend shabbos with her? Sorry, older sister sounds like a mean brat that's been mean to her younger sister her whole life. Time for the older sister to grow up . Now she's just blaming her husband for telling her not to come but from what it sounds like it's coming from the sister not her husband.

amother

Viola

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:20 am

I’m also wondering why the younger sister felt the need to offer not to go… I can see my younger son who is also an empath and sensitive do the same thing and really it comes from codependency and low self esteem… and not from kindness. I think it’s worth for you to look into this and perhaps see how she can build some more self worth so that she doesn’t feel the need to automatically offer to step aside…

amother

Cornsilk

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:20 am

amother Teal wrote:

Reserved the relative first?! What. The . Heck ? How old are we ? Who are they to decide who the relative should have as a guest for shabbos.?

amother

Ivory

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:21 am

amother Taupe wrote:

Could it be that it's simply older dd's mikvah night and she's afraid younger dd will ask where she's going?

So older daughter can just find a dif place to stay at

amother

Cornsilk

Wed, Feb 21 2024, 11:21 am

amother Viola wrote:

Younger sister probably felt the need to offer not to go probably because her older sister had been mean and bullying her for years so she's a bit scared of her and trying to please her . Hoping that if she's nice to her older sister her older sister will show more interest in her or will be nicer to her .