At my wits end with my 4yr old!!!

amother

Ginger

Mon, Jan 11 2016, 9:35 pm

I don't know what to do with her anymore!! As a baby she was an angel, sweet, easy, happiest child. Since age 2-2 1/2 she's been impossible. I've had 2 kids since then so she might be reacting to the less attention but by now I think she's used to it. Every night at bed time she gets her own private time, and the few minutes we wait for her school van I focus on her exclusively. (Babysitter takes toddlers to get dressed then).

Her behaviors:
Ignores my requests to wipe nose, use bathroom, come to bath, come to bed, eat supper, let me brush her hair, get dressed.
She also frequently pushes her younger siblings down, smacks me, smacks siblings, throws food, will make messes for fun (like smearing diaper cream on herself and room, flooding bathroom during bath, coloring on herself or walls).
Tonight she kept saying no when I said bath time/ bedtime. I waited till she was realllllly tired and gave her a quick bath and tucked her in. I told her a short story, but told her no reading book tonight cause it's late. She cried for 20 minutes screaming my name till finally falling asleep.
Her behaviors can be worse or better at times, but they are pretty much constantly there.

In school she's academically bright, likes learn but also exhibiting behaviors like ignoring teachers, ruining other kids projects, touching other kids, etc. punishments or consequences don't seem to bother her. I put her in time out, she's angry while she's in it but comes out doing exactly same thing again.

I'm wondering if I need to evaluate her for behavioral issues. And if so where to start?

Moonlight

Mon, Jan 11 2016, 9:51 pm

I think she needs to have more consequences. It's ok if she cries for 20 minutes or even an hour. You should put her back in time out if she is still not behaving.
If she choses to miss supper, she missed it for the night. I am not saying to abuse/mistreat/starve her but she has to learn that her actions have consequences she will have to live with

amother

Red

Mon, Jan 11 2016, 9:52 pm

My friends daughter sounded just like yours. She put her on a gluten free/whole food diet. She saw alot of improvement, but not 100%. She ended up having her daughter tested medically and her daughter tested positive for lymes disease. She was treated and is doing amazing now. She is still gluten free and eats super clean though because her mother said she does see a difference if she doesnt eat like that.

Dolly Welsh

Mon, Jan 11 2016, 10:56 pm

I have been out of this game for a long time, but to me, you don't ask a four year old to wipe its nose and all that. YOU wipe its nose. She's not big. She just looks big next to the ones who came after her. She may want to be babied because they are, too. But complicated verbal commands don't mean much to any four year old.

You have a lot of wiping to do these days, but it will pass.

gande

Tue, Jan 12 2016, 1:05 am

from my experience, giving my children respect, increases their cooperation. Don't criticize. Also you have to pick your battles. You can't expect her to do everything right at this age. Rather let her go to school with her shoes on the wrong feet than make her change it. I use a lot of bribes and rewards at this age and it helps.

If changing your parenting techniques don't help, then go ahead and have her evaluated.

L K

Tue, Jan 12 2016, 1:18 am

What dolly and gande said, and maybe a
Then the "sensory" suggestion amother.

4yo is a total baby in terms of abilities, actions, reactions. She can't formulate her deeper feelings yet, has limited ability to express or control herself, even if she may be quite verbal. Plus she gets nice amount of attention for misbehavior.

I say talk to other mothers of many kids who have been through raising several 4 year olds. you may get the idea that we have abnormally high expectations of our oldest kids at inappropriately young ages.

saw50st8

Tue, Jan 12 2016, 7:29 am

Have you read "Love and Logic"? It sounds like she's ignoring your requests but might be willing to respond if you gave her choices.

"Do you want to take a bath or a shower?" "Do you want to prepare your pajamas before bath or after?"

The key is that your child starts to understand that they can pick between two options you provide or you will pick the option. It has to be 2 fair options. It gives kids more autonomy and makes them feel in control, all while in the context of parents having the overall boundary control.

It helps with my 4 year old daughter. It's not a miracle cure though :-) It's also ok if she cries when she has a consequence.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Jan 12 2016, 9:33 am

ALL OF THE ABOVE!

BTDT, with DD when she was that age. Lactose intolerance, sensory processing disorders, and a very strong willpower made it a tough year for all of us. We also found out the following year that her tonsils and adenoids were full of drug resistant strep. Once we she had surgery, she was 90% better. I kept her off dairy until she outgrew the allergy at around 10y.

Now I'm just working with a really hormonal, stubborn, confident, and super intelligent tween who loves to push my buttons sometimes.

The ages change, the issues change, but the challenges will always be there. The trick is to find out what the issues are, and then figure out how to deal with them.

Don't forget to breathe!

amother

Ginger

Tue, Jan 12 2016, 10:56 am

Op here thanks for all replies

Her sensory behaviors only started recently so I think it's more behavioral than a sensory processing disorder.

Her adenoids are small and clean no strep but her ears have fluid, not drastic enough for tubes though so I'd rather not.

I try doing things for her like wiping her nose and getting her dressed but she fights me and doesn't let, runs away, turns her head so I can't get to her.

I give her choices like bath or shower but she just says no and runs away.

I'm thinking of starting a chart but I don't think she quite gets the concept...

LittleRed

Tue, Jan 12 2016, 12:38 pm

Before an eval I would try a structured, consistent approach for a set amount of time and see if it helps. There are lots of books and methods. I really like 1-2-3 magic, not just counting but the whole attitude behind it. It's a short easy to read book and it's an easy system to implement. My oldest is just under 4 and has 2 younger siblings as well, so I feel like I know where you're coming from. Like dolly mentioned, I had to lower my expectations for my oldest and realize that she's still very little, just big compared to the other 2. In my experience, it's also about picking my battles. Like if I want her to put her shoes on independently before leaving the house, or put coat away in the correct place when coming in, that's what I stand my ground on, whereas things like nose wiping I would for the most part just do myself. Starting out small with a few consistent things sets the groundwork for more in the future. I definitely think that for most kids, having structure and age appropriate expectations would even out some of her behavior. And it would help you to deal with it in an unemotional way, which helps keep everyone under control.

LittleRed

Tue, Jan 12 2016, 12:44 pm

Just saw your most recent post- my kids don't do as well with choices. something like her running away if you're trying to get her dressed needs to have an immediate 'natural' consequence that she'll care about. Like if she likes reading a book with you after getting dressed, tell her if she doesn't get dressed nicely there won't be time for a book. Then follow through even if she tantrums. There are tons of little things throughout the day you can use. Like, if you put your shoes away, you can be the one to turn on the lights/push button for xyz/ color for 5 min. If you keep it up, it won't be long at all before she understands that it's worth it for her to listen and that it's going to happen either way, so she might as well benefit from doing it nicely.

Tue, Jan 12 2016, 12:53 pm

When young children learn that they are separate from Mommy and that they have the ability to do other than what Mommy says, life does get more frustrating for everyone.

We found behavior charts with very specific rewards/consequences that are reasonable, meaningful to the child and related to the behavior quite useful. It requires some effort on the part of the parents.

Agree with the above - structure and consistency are key.

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, Jan 12 2016, 1:29 pm

I think you need to give her more consequences to the bad behavior and reward for good behavior...so you can do a chart. What I do is, I warn my son (who also doesnt like to get dressed when it's time) that now is the chance for me to dress him. If he doesnt cooperate, or stand still etc. I will leave his clothes on his bed and he'll have to dress himself. It happened once or twice...and there was ALOT of crying involved...but it worked...he doesnt do that shtick anymore...and if he does..all I need to do is give the warning and he jumps to cooperate.
The same is with bathtime...I dont pressure ...you want to stink that's your choice. I let him know that when someone doesnt bathe they end up smelling and the kids in his class may be uncomfortable with playing with him because of the bad smell...he usually decides to bathe...but here and there he chooses not to and I dont make a big deal.
I would have zero tolerance for him hitting me or the other kids...that needs a punishment that she cares about...taking away a privilege rather than time out would work better in my house.
She also sounds like she may have a sensory issue, which she may grow out of, but I would try to get her evaluated.
Good Luck, youve got your hands full!

amother

Rose

Tue, Jan 12 2016, 2:00 pm

I think maybe you are giving her mixed messages. On one hand she is the oldest and expected to wipe her own nose, make choices, get dressed, take a shower while you baby her siblings because they are babies! But, on the other hand you don't think that a four year old grasps rewards charts. Four year old should understand and grasp that concept.

I think four year old are at a transition from toddlerhood into childhood. They grasp behaviors from one and the other stage at the same time. My dh has the hardest time with this stage. She wants to sit on my lap with her blankey but she wants to choose her supper. She wants to share her opinion but she doesn't get that when the baby cries its just the wrong time.

naomi2

Tue, Jan 12 2016, 3:54 pm

I'm pretty sure she needs more love and attention.

She's a baby and has two babies under her. lots of hugs, kisses, I love you, mommy and me time, reading books. I know you set aside some time for her but maybe she needs more?

then start with a sticker chart because she needs positive incentives to learn how to listen again.

amother

Khaki

Tue, Jan 12 2016, 5:57 pm

Visual timers also work in our house. We have the big hour glass timers with sand, ranging from ten to one minute. If dd doesnt listen when I ask her to do something, I set the timer, and let her know how much time She has to do it, before, whatever punishment will be carried out.

If she is busy coloring, and it really isn't a rush, I will put a slower timer, but if I've given lots of warning and she hasn't budged, I use a faster timer.

precious

Tue, Jan 12 2016, 10:56 pm

If you dont think she understands a chart, use direct positive reinforcement.
If we can get dressed before the timer rings, we have time for special shabbos cereal. Do you want me to help you or do you want to get dressed by yourself?
If we can take a bath nicely, we can bring a toy in the bath/ read an extra story afterwards...
Do you want to take a bath now or play for five more minutes? (sometimes they need time to transition) If she says five more minutes, follow through and put her in bath despite her protests, while praising her for listening, then maybe also reward her afterwards
Keep trying to find opportunities to praise and reward good behavior, even regular, expected behavior, cuz shes looking for attention in the wrong ways
As far as hurting siblings and making messes, try not to give her attention and show disapproval and even withdraw attention for a short time

greenfire

Tue, Jan 12 2016, 11:20 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Yup to this.

Consistency & guidance ... no demands