Apikorsos Ideologies in a Post

tichellady

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 5:53 pm

Seas wrote:

There are two distinctly different things. One is encouraging people to keep as many mitzvos as possible with the idea behind it that every mitzvoh is...well, a mitzvoh. The other is telling people, 'it's ok if you at least keep the mitzvoh in your own way'. This is corruption of the Torah and offering compromises where you haven't got the autority to do so.

(for example telling someone to just take the beef option in Mcdonalds and let them think they're at least doing 'something'.)

I think we are all talking about different things. You seemed to be saying that it's all or nothing but now you are saying that's not what you meant- I think we are both confused and should just end this conservation because it no longer seems to be constructive.

marina

Thu, Jan 28 2016, 8:34 pm

I understand that you, Seas (and others like you) are worried about the frum woman who reads up on the casual attitude of some towards niddah and she will say: hmmm I guess bedikos aren't that important. I hear you.

But this applies to so many other interactions here - we all affect each other in positive and negative ways.

Are you worried about the woman who reads posts against vaccines and decides: hmmm, I guess I won't vaccinate my infant. She is possibly violating at least one m'deoraisah, but are you worried about her? And that this forum doesn't bar anti-vax comments, giving them instead a little safe haven from others' critique? That would be like having a little apikorishe safe haven for all OTD imamothers to discuss their OTD ideas... (not a bad idea Wink

)

And what about the woman who says: mmm, I guess mesira is a big aveira. I won't call the authorities even though I know about a horrible ongoing child abuse situation in my neighborhood? Are you worried about her? And the child?

And what about the woman who says: hmmm, I see that so many people are working under the table, I guess it's no big deal.

Or the young woman who sneaks on her mother's account and reads up about the horrible things men do to their wives and decides never to get married?

Are these concerns as worrisome to you as the woman who might be influenced by another who does not start her count anew after bedikos? And if not, why not?

And if yes, you can make yourself crazy worrying about everyone who may mess up because they read something someone else wrote.

It's much better to let it go. We all affect each other, many times in good ways, many times in less good ways. In that thread that worries you so much, a woman may have discovered she had been doing something wrong her whole married life. Now she can fix it. If you police everyone, however, it won't work. People will just hide.

princessleah

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 9:36 am

leah233 wrote:

They are basically a dying OTD group that started with the philosophy of letting certain D'Rabonons not be kept so people will be able to observe Judaism.
[I]

OT: Just want to point out, (being married to the son of a Conservative Rabbi) that what you are saying is incorrect. The official position of the Conservative movement on TH is that women wait 7 clean days, then go to the mikvah, pretty much the Orthodox position maybe minus the Harchakot. If you've read Klein or something similar you will see that.

Also, if you learn the history of the Conservative movement, you would know that it evolved as a response to REFORM JUDAISM, to try and bring people BACK to observance, rather than an "OTD group" as you put it, so please save your Sinat Chinam for a different group of people, really.

To sum: not observant of halacha =/ Conservative, so please don't use the term in that way, it's offensive. TY.

leah233

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 1:48 pm

princessleah wrote:

Also, if you learn the history of the Conservative movement, you would know that it evolved as a response to REFORM JUDAISM, to try and bring people BACK to observance, rather than an "OTD group" as you put it, so please save your Sinat Chinam for a different group of people, really.

Pretty much a confirmation of my point. Groups who let things slide to save Judaism only end up letting more and more things slide.

I don't see any Sinas Chinom in saying the Conservative movement does not follow Halacha or keep every D'Rabanon.They don't deny that.And again this is an Orthodox site.

I won't post further on this thread.

Seas

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 2:55 pm

marina wrote:

Though a post as long as yours deserves one of similar length, I'm quite busy and tired, so I'll try to be succinct.

The problem isn't so much the fact that sometimes amothers write how the disobey halacha (though that is a major problem), but more the irreverence some show to halacha in general and Drabanan in particular.

While there is always a danger of being negatively affected by seeing someone be over on halacha, the danger increases hundredfold when it's an irreverent attitude. That is what is known as leitzanus - mocking and taking away fear of something serious.

Amalek was a leitz. When all the nations wouldn't dare mess with Klal Yisrael, Amalek waged war with them. As Rashi gives the analogy: he jumped into a hot tub, and despite getting scalded himself, he 'cooled it off' for everyone else.

That is the main problem with posts that mock or even show irreverence and ambivalence to Chazal and halacha - that due to the insidious nature of such words, once frum women will become cooled off and lose their fear of Hashem.

GAP

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 2:56 pm

I think people should be able to write what they want. We're all aware that posters on this site are a mixture of people from different walks of life and many have different views than you and all different kinds of opinions. Someone else's opinion shouldn't sway you unless you see some validity in it, in which case, you can learn something or find out more. None of us are perfect and we all struggle with some aspect of Judaism and people should be allowed to share their struggles. If too many topics become off boundaries because some people find it offensive or have personal issues with it, this site will lose it's beauty and will just consist of a bunch of neutral topics.

boymom

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 3:09 pm

GAP wrote:

while you have a point that pple shouldn't sway because of others' opinions, SEAS brought out a really good point of getting "cooled off" to yiddishkeit.
there is a difference when a poster says "we do it this way, this is our custom..." etc. or when a poster mocks aspects of yiddishkeit that border on halachah, or other communities minhagim.

that said, it is possible to have lively discussions on all aspects of yiddishkeit, without the sarcasm, mocking and what not.

Maya

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 3:51 pm

Seas wrote:

Nobody is forced to sit in the presence of leitzim.
The internet is a place where views and ideas and opinions of all types of people are shared. Content cannot be controlled. I think the rule of no writing against halacha can be enforced, but you can't enforce rules of no sarcasm or no humor. If you don't want to be exposed to that, you know what you need to do.

princessleah

Sun, Jan 31 2016, 8:13 pm

boymom wrote:

It's an interesting point, and I could see where the concern would lie in terms of the "cooling off," but I really did not see any mocking and sarcasm. There is some sarcasm when it comes to perceived Rabbinical control over women. But the post we've kind of been talking about, I only saw someone struggling and other women offering her support and encouragement, and giving her chizzuk that doing the best she can, right now, is enough. And IMHO, that's great, rather than condemning her, to meet her at her level and help raise her up.

blossoming

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 2:21 am

amother wrote:

I too, was thinking that some posts are outright apikorsis. One amother in particular, I feel, should be banned, due to her resentment towards yiddishkeit. She has a really negative attitude towards anything holy....

and another I know of, should also be banned, because every time Tznius comes up she has such horrible apikorus things to say, which make me shudder and stay away from iamamother for a few weeks.

chani8

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 3:55 am

Quote:

should also be banned

Because that's the way to handling everything, banning. Rolling Eyes

The beauty of this site is that you are more than welcome to try to put chutzpa in it's place.

If a comment comes off as apikorsis to you, then challenge and debate it. It's good for you to learn how to do that, because you may need it for when you have teens.

Learn how to articulate your beliefs in a calm and clear manner instead of banning a subject or person.

I haven't noticed any true apikorsis on here. Instead, I think certain comments freak people out and they cannot get past their emotional response to see that it's not as bad as they feel it is.

Sometimes the comments are indeed a bit chutzpa, but no more chutzpa than all of us being on the internet in the first place.

saw50st8

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 9:23 am

boymom wrote:

I think two of the problems are:
1- chareidi vs. non chareidi - one sect can be taught that xyz is an absolute non negotiable halachah, and a different sect can be taught that xyz is a minhag in some communities. I think there's a big discrepancy in the way different sects of Judaism are taught halachah.( I think this also has a major impact on hashkofah issues)

2- some women on here think that Torah is only the five chumashim. any other jewish sefer is just a book written by some rabbis. they don't realize that any halachah in "nach" is just as halachah as anything written in the chumash.
what they also don't realize is that chumash is only HALF of the torah. the other half is Mishnah/gemarah, which we call Torah shebal peh. And mishayos and gemarah were written not too long ago buy a bunch of , you got it - rabbis. so when you choose to ignore a halachah taken from gemorah, then bear in mind- it's the same torah we got at Har Sinai.

This is a total and inaccurate oversimplification.

The reason people debate more on gemara is because there are a million different opinions in the gemara and they are all about debating them. There are so many differing, varying opinions that it is up for debate. TSBP is basically one long debate where different rabbonim come to different conclusions about the actual halacha. Never mind that we don't pasken from the gemara, we trace laws from Tanach through the various TSBP. There are very few halachot that are actually one way only. For example, we don't kill but are allowed to kill in self defense. There are loopholes and details and changes on every single halacha out there. Nothing is really simple.

PinkFridge

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 11:08 am

saw50st8 wrote:

Not to quibble but we don't murder.
We kill, as in self-defense and war. That's for a purpose.

saw50st8

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 11:48 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Not to quibble but we don't murder.
We kill, as in self-defense and war. That's for a purpose.

I never said murder :-)

But that's the point - we don't take other people's lives....unless we do. There are applications for everything and debates and nothing is simple. I tried to pick an extreme example but you can really pick absolutely any halacha and there are reasons why each one wouldn't be so simple.

PinkFridge

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 11:58 am

saw50st8 wrote:

Ah, taking lives. You said, we don't kill, except for when we do.
But I do get your point.
But I do see some other hands too. (I'm a mother of many, b"H, I have all these extra hands to see "OTOH" Wink

)

marina

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 12:19 pm

blossoming wrote:

and another I know of, should also be banned, because every time Tznius comes up she has such horrible apikorus things to say, which make me shudder and stay away from iamamother for a few weeks.

If your faith is so weak that some comments on tznius craziness make you shudder and stay away, perhaps that's something to address with a teacher or rav? Maybe you can be helped! Don't give up!

marina

Mon, Feb 01 2016, 12:35 pm

boymom wrote:

There are a lot of horrible things going on in Judaism nowadays (like in most other religions), and sarcasm is sometimes a good way to handle it.

For example, agunah is a horrible problem that rabbonim are not addressing adequately. Here's an interesting and sarcastic meme that's been making the rounds:

Quote:

Thankfully there are loopholes available to solve pressing issues in halacha.
Can't charge interest? Heter Iska.
Can't work the land on Shmita? Heter Mechira.
Can't carry on shabbos? Eiruv Chatzeiros.
Can't walk far on Shabbat? Eruv Tchumin.
Can't enforce a loan after Shmita? Pruzbol.
Can't own chametz on pesach? Mechirat Chametz (with a bonus Bitul),
Can't cook on Yom Tov for Shabbat? Eruv Tavshilin.
Promised to do something? Hatarat Nedarim.
First born that has to fast on erev pesach? Siyum.
Want to eat meat during the 9 days? Siyum.
A woman wont agree to divorce her husband? Heter Meya Rabonim.
A man wont give his wife a get? Sorry, there's nothing we can do. Halacha is Halacha.

Sarcasm has its place.