Discomfort with Mitzvah Notes

amother

Alyssum

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 11:33 pm

ittsamother wrote:

It was mentioned Smile

And yes, there should come a point where the reward is internal and intrinsic. I think most feel that 3 (and 4 and 5 and 6) is just not that point.

Hmm. I Just went back to read the whole thread and didnt see anyone mention this Rambam. Can you point me to it? I would love to see the source again. I'm out of seminary almost 30 years but thats one thing I remember.

amother

Marigold

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 12:38 am

I agree with you OP, I’ve raised a few kids and I was not a mitzvah note mom. Not because I couldn’t manage to write then but because intrinsically I disagree with them. It’s very fake. I connect with my children and they are proud of themselves and feel good when they do something good. Something as silly and superficial as a mitzvah note is not gonna get them far. I love the Morah who asked for oral mitzvah notes, that can go such a long way because they are connecting to themselves and their own goodness and taking ownership of their actions.

BrisketBoss

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 12:42 am

hodeez wrote:

So we can't have negative reinforcement...now positive is also out?

They share a lot of downsides, yes. Opposite sides of the same coin. To no one's surprise I agree with OP.

Loch Ness

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 3:27 am

I didn't read the whole thread, but I agree that there's something wrong with mitzvah notes. The kids who bring in mitzvah notes didn't necessarily do more "mitzvos" at home than the kids who didn't. It all has to do with whether the parents sent in a note or not.

Laiya

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 8:14 am

amother Alyssum wrote:

Literally all of life is a system of reward and punishment.
Sometimes the reward or punishment is a natural consequence, which directly relates to the action.
Other times, it's external.
But human beings operate with that system. We need to see consequences of our actions, otherwise we lose motivation.
How many of us would go to work every day if we didnt get rearded for it?
If you doubt the efficacy if it, think about the fact the Hashem created the world on a system of reward and punishment as well.

I see the argument for trying to create the type of reward or punishment that feels natural and makes sense.
But that's not always possible.

Behavioral modification, including positive reinforcement, doesn't create intrinsic or lasting motivation. The behavior ends when the reinforcement ends. The bolded is a good example.

amother

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 9:21 am

To those who are concerned, of course I will write mitzvah notes because I don't want my child feeling less than.

Regarding positive reinforcement not being ok - it's certainly better than negative reinforcement and I think it's inevitable that we will use it but I think it's not ideal as the go-to method for parenting, I agree with Brisket Boss that's it's basically the flip side of the coin, it teaches children do this and you'll get that. Instead of feeling pride inside which ultimately lasts them a lot longer than a sticker or treat.

I understand that it feels "newfangled" etc. I get it. Different strokes for different folks. 🤷‍♀️

(btw I love the idea of writing for ourselves a mitzvah note, (you should start a mommy mitvah note thread! I won't object Wink

) Maybe that's actually, a good idea to ask the child what they felt proud of that day and write that...instead of me deciding it for them.

socialbutterfly

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 12:42 pm

Laiya wrote:

Behavioral modification, including positive reinforcement, doesn't create intrinsic or lasting motivation. The behavior ends when the reinforcement ends. The bolded is a good example.

Our values, as Yidden, also include caring about reward and punishment. Yes, we are supposed to do things just because Hashem said, but make no mistake, Hashem is very clear about reward and punishment. We all do things both because Hashem said so but also because we know it's good for us and we want good olam haba.

Does your behavior end when the reward ends in day-to-day life? I don't know about you, but I don't necessarily see any reward from me keeping shabbos, yet I still do it.

I hear your point, but it's also important to teach children that there is reward and punishment in this world and that we won't always be rewarded and we still have to do good.

Perhaps a better system is to give mitzvah notes and rewards some of the time. Not all the time. Maybe we teach our children that the good feeling they have from being nice to their sibling is the reward. I don't think you need to banish positive reinforcement.

gootlfriends

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 1:34 pm

Honestly I only write mitzva notes when my kid does something hard for her. She doesn't really care about it. She is a well behaved kid and they don't expect all of the kids to bring daily. If the kid wants one I make an effort.

octopus

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 1:49 pm

BrooklynBee wrote:

Love this! As a child therapist, this is one part of the work that I do, I do this in session and teach parents to use encouragement instead of praise. It's important because it creates internal motivation as opposed to external motivation. Saying "you worked so hard on that" instead of "you did a great job" may not sound so different, but one teaches the child to recognize their accomplishments on their own and the other teaches the child that they need to go to you to get recognition.

And I say both those things to my kids. I'll say "you worked so hard on something, it looks great, I'm so proud of you , and you must be really proud of yourself, too." Sometimes I think everyone is so nuts and you think too much into everything. I get pleasure when others notice my hard work AND I also get pleasure intrinsically when I put in hard work.

Laiya

Thu, Dec 21 2023, 5:54 pm

socialbutterfly wrote:

Ideally, the motivator for good behavior should be the relationship. The relationship with parents, and as adults, our relationship with Hashem. Using your example of shabbos, we should view shabbos as a day for us to connect with and improve our relationship with Hashem.

amother

Sand

Wed, Dec 27 2023, 7:31 pm

Laiya wrote:

I mean, I'm not there as an adult so how could anyone expect a 3 year old to be there. I keep Shabbos because I know that's what a frum Jew does, because Hashem says we have to, and because of the benefits it brings to my life. I'm not at a level where I keep it to get to a closer place with Hashem. Maybe one day but idk. I definitely am gonna do all that I can to get my kids to a place where they associate everything in yiddishkeit with positive feelings, and if one of the first stages is a mitzvah note in KG or nursery that makes them feel good about themselves and feel that their mitzvos have been recognized, I'm thrilled to do it.

ittsamother

Wed, Dec 27 2023, 7:38 pm

amother Alyssum wrote:

Oh, I wasn't saying that specific Rambam was mentioned. You started your post by saying that you "don't know if this was mentioned" and I assumed you meant the concept in general. Sounded to me like the concept was about mitoch shelo lishma, ba lishma, and that was definitely mentioned a few times, so that's what I was responding to.

amother

Cognac

Wed, Dec 27 2023, 7:43 pm

Wow I'm really surprised reading through some of this thread.
My three year old loves mitzvah notes. She doesn't get any rewards or stickers for them, but is so proud to share with her morah that she stayed in her bed the whole night or said a beautiful Bracha. She usually tells me what she wants me to write. And there definitely have been a couple of occasions where she did the right thing because I told her we'll be able to write a mitzvah note if she does it.
I don't see any possibile downsides...