Discomfort with Mitzvah Notes

Laiya

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 3:54 pm

giftedmom wrote:

It’s a facet of gentle parenting. Generally gentle parenting isn’t a philosophy embraced by the school system.

Are you saying that not liking mitzvah notes is a facet of gentle parenting?

amother

Peachpuff

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 5:46 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Disagree.

The book " punished by rewards " is trying to take away any influence parents have on their kids.

First they convince parents that all punishment is abuse.

Then they convince parents that praise and rewards is also abuse (manipulation).

But schools, colleges and the workplace DO use reward and punishment, because it DOES work.

If you are "woke" you are rewarded.

If you dissent from Woke you are punished, expelled, fired, etc.

And parents have zero influence due to them following parenting "experts".

I never read this book but just based on the example you gave of wokeness, wouldn't you want your child to make decisions based on what is aligned with their values rather than the reward or punishment in such a situation?

I don't think anyone believes that reward and punishment doesn't exist in the world, of course is does, don't we get speeding tickets? What we are trying to do is raise kids who pay closer attention to their integrity than the reward or punishment for the action.

zaq

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 5:47 pm

I agree with NechaMom, you're making an issue where none exists. However, I think givingthe kid a sticker is silly. The mitzvah note itself is the reward. The sticker should go to the mom for remembering and putting in the effort to write the note.

amother

Ecru

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 6:21 pm

(Only read the first post)

I think it teaches children zrizus to do mitzvos. When a mitzvah comes you grab the opportunity. The children get ideas of what types of mitzvos there are that they can do. And some positive reinforcement. I think its good chinuch. But boy did I hate writing the notes, LOL

, it was like homework for me.

amother

Daphne

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 8:05 pm

I don't see the issue Scratching Head

My toddler has just turned two and even though he has limited understanding, whenever he fetches something for me or shares with someone, I'll say 'Wow, Meir is such a mitzvah boy!'. He doesn't know what it means yet, but he still beams when I say it. I believe that's the start of incalculating in them that 'it's amazing to do mitzvos'.

And mitzvah notes are the next stage in doing that.

In this vein, any teaching about Torah and Judaism can be considered 'manipulation'. But, instilling a love for yiddishkeit from a young age when their minds are so impressionable should be looked at as a good thing and not ch'v the opposite.

ittsamother

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 8:26 pm

My first reaction was "So your kid gets a sticker for doing a mitzvah, what in the world is the harm in that!" and if the sticker is going directly to the child, on their hand or shirt or whatever, I still feel that way. They're so ephemeral, they're gone in a few hours, they make the kid excited about their mitzvah and feel good about themselves, I see no problems there.

But a sticker on a chart in school bothers me, because I worked as a P3 in a KG class during English hours and noticed the mitzvah note sticker charts and I felt SO BAD for the few little girls who had way less than everyone else. Clearly their parents either didn't remember abt the mitzvah notes or had no time or patience to write them, but these little innocent girls had to remember every time they looked at the chart that everyone else has like 15/20 stickers and they had none. I felt like the Morah should be giving them mitzvah notes themselves then! And I still feel bad that I didn't step up and just sneak a few notes in myself! Mitzvah notes should never become a competition.

amother

Mulberry

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 8:37 pm

I didnt read the whole thread. As a Morah and a mother this bothers me a lot. The kids who bring in mitzvah notes every day do so because their mother is on top of it and/or clearly uses mitzvah notes at home as a way to get their kids to do things. Those kids are not doing more mitzvos than the kids whose mothers don't think about mitzvah notes! So why would a kid get a sticker for bringing in their mothers homework?? The praise for the mitzvah is plenty!

amother

Salmon

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 8:40 pm

hodeez wrote:

So we can't have negative reinforcement...now positive is also out?

It's like what someone said about the gay rainbows you have to know what's going to offend that specific person.

amother

Salmon

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 8:40 pm

hodeez wrote:

So we can't have negative reinforcement...now positive is also out?

It's like what someone said about the gay rainbows you have to know what's going to offend that specific person.

BrooklynBee

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 8:54 pm

amother Peachpuff wrote:

Hi, teacher in a Montessori school here.
We strongly build a child's intrinsic motivation while recognizing that it's a life long process. We have Mitzvah notes and use it as an opportunity to highlight how they're bringing Moshiach and encouraging them to be proud of themselves. Celebrating accomplishments is a big part of building intrinsic motivation.
The difference between what we do and what regular schools might do is we would say "Wow! moishy is bringing Moshiach! Moishy, I hope you're so proud of yourself" as opposed to "moishy is a Mitzva boy! I'm so proud of you!"
We make it about the child's feeling towards their accomplishment as opposed to how proud we are as the adults.

Love this! As a child therapist, this is one part of the work that I do, I do this in session and teach parents to use encouragement instead of praise. It's important because it creates internal motivation as opposed to external motivation. Saying "you worked so hard on that" instead of "you did a great job" may not sound so different, but one teaches the child to recognize their accomplishments on their own and the other teaches the child that they need to go to you to get recognition.

Happydance

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 11:10 pm

Queen Of Hearts wrote:

I don't see that being better than the regular system. Moshiach should come very soon but l'maseh they are not seeing concrete evidence of Moshiach coming cause of their mitzvos.
And why is a child thinking he's bringing Moshiach better than being proud that he's a Mitzvah boy?
And what is wrong with a child knowing his Mommy and Morah are proud of him?
These newfangled methods of chinuch Can't Believe It

Not newfangled...
Im still waiting for my mitza notes to be the final brick that brings the beis hamikdash from shomayim

amother

Papayawhip

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 11:10 pm

I'm out of the parsha (my youngest is 20) but my kids all had mitzva notes as well. Maybe it has gotten even more over the top these last dozen years, but I always cringed when the teachers preached "catch them being good". I understand why they want to focus on the positive, but I felt that many of the teachers were just making it easier on themselves. It's easy to just praise. It's much harder to correct bad/wayward behavior. Schools don't have enough of that now-a-days.

amother

Alyssum

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 11:18 pm

I didn't read the whole thread so excuse me if this was already mentioned.

I used to wonder about the wisdom of rewarding kids for doing mitzvos. Shouldn't kids feel a sense of reward just for doing the good deed? At what point do we stop with the prizes?

In seminary, a teacher of mine showed me a Rambam that says that children should be rewarded small prizes to encourage them in doing mitzvos and learning Torah. As the child matures and grows, the prize should become more substantial. He gave examples of appropriate prizes. I dont remeber the source or any specifics, except I remember the example given as an approporiate prize for an older child was a new suit.

(Anyone ever seen this Rambam?)

ittsamother

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 11:20 pm

amother Alyssum wrote:

It was mentioned Smile

And yes, there should come a point where the reward is internal and intrinsic. I think most feel that 3 (and 4 and 5 and 6) is just not that point.

amother

Purple

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 11:23 pm

Thisisnotmyreal wrote:

The Rebbe's approach to Chinuch has barely made it into the Chabad schools but it runs along the ops thinking.

I think the rebbe encouraged positive reinforcement for doing mitzvos- example tzivos hashem you go up in rank.

amother

Alyssum

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 11:26 pm

amother Peachpuff wrote:

Literally all of life is a system of reward and punishment.
Sometimes the reward or punishment is a natural consequence, which directly relates to the action.
Other times, it's external.
But human beings operate with that system. We need to see consequences of our actions, otherwise we lose motivation.
How many of us would go to work every day if we didnt get rearded for it?
If you doubt the efficacy if it, think about the fact the Hashem created the world on a system of reward and punishment as well.

I see the argument for trying to create the type of reward or punishment that feels natural and makes sense.
But that's not always possible.