All Who Go Do Not Return

debsey

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 5:09 pm

Maya wrote:

It's not a false dichotomy.Charedi is not Chassidish. Being Charedi does not mean that you have anything in common with people from the Chassidish communities of New Square or Satmar or similar. People who use their critical thinking skills can't have success in the communities I mentioned, because the culture of those demands absolute deference to authority with no room for personal decision making or individuality. This is the exact reason why both my husband and I have had difficulty in the community from the time we were kids.

I have many neighbors who are Satmar, and one woman in particular is probably the smartest, most intellectual person I have EVER met. She is largely self-taught, but boy is she well-read. She came from a typical Willy family, and I get the sense that most of her reading and self-education came after marriage - but I don't think she's any less of a critical thinker because of her upbringing! As you can tell, I enjoy intellectual debate and discussion, and she's probably my favorite "sparring partner".

Maya

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 5:28 pm

debsey wrote:

My claim is not that Chassidish women can't be smart or intellectual or well-read. My claim is that they can never look at the Chassidish lifestyle with the same naivete and contentment as that of their not-so-well-read peers. Her facade may be that of a good Satmar viebel, but I'll bet on my opinion that her belief in the system she lives by is full of holes.

It is my opinion that it's almost impossible to get educated about the world around you yet maintain with absolute conviction that the Chassidish lifestyle is the ultimate one. I will reiterate that critical thinking has no place in the mainstream Chassidish world, no matter how many articulate Chassidish lawyers or Bais Yaakov girls you know (who as I said before, cannot be compared to Satmar or New Square girls, no matter how hard you try.)

debsey

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 5:49 pm

Maya wrote:

I can't speak to her experience, or towards yours. That would be wrong. What I can say is that all systems that humans exist in are full of holes, and I think she's well aware of the ones in hers, but one of our biggest debates is about her belief that Chassidus is the ultimate expression of Judaism. I disagree with her, obviously.
I'm just saying it is simplistic to say that Chassidus = complete lack of critical thinking.

Maya

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 6:12 pm

It's not simplistic. It's the plain truth. It's the exact definition of modern day Chassidus, which requires you to discard any shred of individuality in favor of extreme conformity, and to believe that the leaders have absolute authority over everything. Everything. Chassidish couples on average can't even choose the names of their own children. Everything is dictated to them. To those of us who grew up in that system, it's laughable that you'd even put Chassidish and critical thinking in the same sentence.

gp2.0

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 6:13 pm

debsey wrote:

See, I have a problem with this false dichotomy. WADR, because I find your posts generally thoughtful (and I can't argue with the TARDIS)! I don't see this as a dichotomy - one can be Chassidish and a critical thinker. I consider myself charedi and I am a critical thinker. He is a critical thinker AND he decided chassidus is not for him. Do you see the distinction I am trying to draw? I think people like Rebbetzin Tziporah Heller, Rebbetzin Feigy Twerski, or Rabbi Akiva Tatz are pretty good at critical thinking...........

Yes, you can be a critical thinker and remain chassidish (how you feel inside is your business.) But you can't become a critical thinker unless you are exposed to different perspectives, whether those are your parents or other relatives or the books you read.

The chassidish communities of today actively discourage critical thinking. To do so is already enough to make you feel different and like you don't belong, whether or not you choose to stay.

debsey

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 6:37 pm

Maya wrote:

Individualism and critical thinking are not the same thing! You can be both conformist to the larger values of your group AND a critical thinker. You are right that in order to do so, you have to educate yourself. My only dispute is the characterization of ALL Chassidim as AUTOMATICALLY incapable of critical thinking. Many are very capable, are aware that the system isn't perfect, yet still make a mindful choice to practice their way of life!
My friend told me that this is one of the biggest reasons she is happier in Lakewood than she was in Willy. How would she and I ever have met? How would she be part of a very diverse group of women? But she didn't move to Lakewood to "run away." She moved to lakewood because that's where she and her husband were advised to go.

youngishbear

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 6:45 pm

Debsey, I agree 100%. Many of us do make a conscious decision to stay where we know we belong. Some of us seriously think about how to fix what's wrong with the system.

I do agree with Maya and gp2 that critical thinking/individualism (isn't it individuality?) and broadening one's mind through reading and mingling are not chassidish values. Some of the above are actually discouraged.

I believe that there are many individuals who struggle with intellectual questions and emerge with different conclusions than Deen. It wouldn't make a very interesting book, though.

debsey

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 6:51 pm

youngishbear wrote:

Thank you. That's my point. Who will read "I was frum. Then I read Tolstoy and Ayn Rand and Freud. Then I decided - still frum. It's not perfect, but there's a lot to be said for it. I wrestle with my moral dilemmas and choices every day, but this is the lifestyle for me"?

Not nearly as exciting as "chassidish rabbi taught me to lie...then I ate pork....then I had 32 boyfriends (and here's what I did with each and every one of them). And by the way, I left for INTELLECTUAL reasons. All who stay are stupider than me. Look how great I look in jeans!"

What I am hoping is that Deen's book is a bit more intelligent and intellectual than the type of memoir I am lampooning. Then it will be worth reading.

zaq

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 6:54 pm

Maya wrote:

It is my opinion that it's almost impossible to get educated about the world around you yet maintain with absolute conviction that the Chassidish lifestyle is the ultimate one.

I am willing to bet that this exact statement has been made early and often, substituting "Jewish" "Observant Jewish" or "Orthodox Jewish" for "Chassidish".

Maya

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 7:01 pm

debsey wrote:

The bolded is Exhibit A. They were advised to move, they didn't make their own decision to do so.

Either way, everyone understands there are always exceptions to the rules. That's why when people speak of a phenomenon, they usually mean the majority or average of the group.

amother

Brown

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 7:03 pm

Maya wrote:

From what I understand from this post and your previous posts is that your definition of critical thinking is only if the person reaches the same conclusion as you.do you really think that people that don't reach the same conclusion as you do not use critical thinking?

Maya

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 7:07 pm

amother wrote:

You coward again?
I'd like for you to quote in here the post where I state that anyone who reached a different conclusion that I did has no critical thinking skills. At least back up your claims with concrete evidence.

debsey

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 7:10 pm

Maya wrote:

Yes. THat is part and parcel of the Chassidish lifestyle- asking the rebbe what to do. That is not a contradiction to the use of critical thinking! For sure, in the yeshivishe system, you ask a sheilah or an eitzah from a gadol, and then you wrestle with that response. Deciding to follow the gadol's guidance can often require quite a lot of critical thinking, as you ponder all aspects of the situation.

debsey

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 7:11 pm

amother wrote:

Brown amother - I agree with Maya that it is best if you post a critical comment under your own screen name. We're on the same "side" in this debate, but have the courage of your convictions. Your statement can in no way identify your real life identity!

Maya

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 7:13 pm

debsey wrote:

Yes. THat is part and parcel of the Chassidish lifestyle- asking the rebbe what to do. That is not a contradiction to the use of critical thinking!For sure, in the yeshivishe system, you ask a sheilah or an eitzah from a gadol, and then you wrestle with that response. Deciding to follow the gadol's guidance can often require quite a lot of critical thinking, as you ponder all aspects of the situation.

It certainly is a contradiction.
If your rebbe says "move to Lakewood" and you make plans to move to Lakewood, how are you now going to use your critical thinking skills regarding the issue of moving out of Williamsburg? It has been decided for you. You didn't have to do one ounce of thinking for it.

amother

Hotpink

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 7:15 pm

debsey wrote:

There's a big difference between asking an eitza from a Gadol about something major....and the Chassidish lifestyle that follows the Rebbe in so many small details. It's not about blind obedience, it's more about asking someone with more life experience and objectivity - someone older and wiser, with a broader range.

I'm a Litvish housewife that grew up in a more "heimish" family. One of my brothers chose to become Chassidish. He was once our Shabbos guest, and he asked me to serve compote for Friday night dessert, and apple crisp for Shabbos day - these were the two desserts I'd cooked and I planned the reverse, since I wanted to serve the crisp on Friday night, hot and fresh. He explained that the Rebbe eats compote on Friday night.

I haven't the foggiest idea what the Roshei Yeshiva of Lakewood serve for Friday night dessert.....nor any other Litvish Gadol. My personal preference would override their choice, anyway.

KWIM?