All Who Go Do Not Return

Fox

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 3:14 pm

Maya wrote:

Fox, I don't think your examples are the same as deliberately not speaking to your son-in-law whom you meet in shul every morning.

I agree -- there's an element of drama that is missing from my experiences. On the other hand, there's a certain eagerness to keep the non-conforming child under wraps to avoid embarrassing the family, and I think that's very similar.

Maya

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 3:16 pm

Fox wrote:

That is likely true. I think the main difference would be in the relationship between parent and child, rather than in the relationship between parents and their peers.

ora_43

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 3:17 pm

Maya wrote:

Fox, I don't think your examples are the same as deliberately not speaking to your son-in-law whom you meet in shul every morning.

Ora, based on my own experiences, my example is not completely abnormal. Some parents have more seichel than that, but people are not shocked at such examples.

So what do people do when there's someone obviously ignoring his son-in-law? Do they say something?

I'm still curious about the people-who-previously-left aspect. Do you not get anyone who used to be part of the community but now isn't who still comes by to visit? What if someone's sibling isn't chassidic anymore, or isn't religious at all, how's that usually handled?

Maya

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 3:18 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Both of these would depend on individual family dynamics.

marina

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 4:06 pm

Fox wrote:

And in which of these institutions were you on the faculty or in another position of permanence?

None, obviously. But why does it matter? Would it have been any different if my professors all failed me? Is that really that different than being denied tenure?

And yes, if they all failed me, I would be furious. But I could still function in society. I could appeal my grades, I could drive my car to the meeting with the dean, I could write up a grievance and express it well. I could google what to do when a university discriminates against you because of your speech, and I could read about it and I could figure out what an ombudsman is and how to contact him or her and I could also consider whether I need an attorney.

And what can you do if you are a marginally -literate chossid and start listening to the radio in secret and your community freaks out? None of those things.

Deen did not know about getting an attorney or fighting for custody. He was completely unaware of that process. That's permanently crippling, not just - like in the tenure or grades example - temporarily challenging.

marina

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 4:09 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Deen's children refused to see him. Even when he dressed the part and just offered them completely acceptable activities. The kids' friends made fun of them for having a g0yish dad, so eventually they started to cry when it was time to see him, and he didn't want them to go through that. That part of the story is really heartbreaking.

marina

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 4:12 pm

Fox wrote:

Seriously? I wouldn't have the heart to tell someone this.

Anyway, to reiterate, I wasn't trying to make a direct, item-by-item comparison. I was attempting to demonstrate that what we consider intolerable has a lot more to do with us as individuals than the particular community in which we are born/raised/live.

I don't know why you are resisting the objective piece here. Yes, sure, people have subjective perspectives and can tolerate loads of horrific ****. Just ask women who live in societies where honor killings are a norm, or where rape is not a crime, or where you risk death by going to elementary school.

But we can say: that is objectively intolerable. Even if you think it's okay because that's your life and you are used to it, we can say, "no that's not okay."

And sometimes we say it to ourselves and sometimes we say it aloud.

sequoia

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 4:28 pm

Thank you marina!!!!!!

I was just formulating my reply to Fox while cooking, but you phrases it so perfectly there's nothing left to add.

Fox, I "love" your sophistry and moral relativism. Clearly, this is why we become frum -- to erase all ideas of right and wrong from our consciousness.

If I held you in an underground bunker for 15 years, you may find that tolerable. But that doesn't mean it's okay to kidnap people. Kidnapping people is wrong, even if you don't mind.

Dixi.

mommy3b2c

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 4:32 pm

Maya wrote:

I apologize if I offended you.

I should have clarified that all I mean to say is that difficulties endured by those who don't want to conform in the Chassidishe culture are nowhere near that of the difficulties endured by those who don't conform to whatever other secular or liberal culture they grew up in.

As marina said, the consequences of non-conformity and leaving are much greater than anywhere else, such as kids being kicked out of school and parents disowning and losing relationships with children. I assume that is something you don't know about other than reading in memoirs. As I said earlier in the thread, a friend of mine's father is not talking to her husband because he stopped wearing veise zocken. Can you say that's comparable to any secular culture you know about? Will a WASP mother stop speaking to her daughter if she starts to dress like a hippie? Is that totally normal or am I the ignorant one here?

Would a WASP mother stop speaking to her son if he chose to wear veise zocken? Very possibly. What is the difference?

Tablepoetry

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 4:34 pm

I agree with Marina here. Just because two different forms of disapproval both fall on the same spectrum, doesn't mean they are the same or the repercussions are the same.

Disowning your child because he changed his form of dress is entirely different from not bragging about your kid because he's taken up hobbies you seriously and morally object to, like hunting for pleasure.

A second key difference, IMO, is that chassidic communities pressure you to marry within the fold very young. Your freedom of choice and movement is severly limited after that.
You can't compare early marriage to having a liberal parent 'force' his kid to go to a 'liberal' college or enter a certain profession. The kid can change his mind a year later, drop out, whatever. The young chassidic twenty year old can do no such thing;a year later, she is already pregnant, perhaps with a baby, her (or his) life inextricably tied to another's, and to concern for their child.

And finally,you can in no way compare the way knowledge is imparted. It seems the author of this memoir entered marriage not even knowing where babies come from. If that isn't a serious handicap, I don't know what is. How can you function in any society, beyond the tiniest chassidic enclave, like that? You would sound like a literal idiot if anyone heard you pondering that question.
A child of 'liberal' university professors may have been limited to a certain world view, may have been discouraged from delving into certain distasteful philosophies, but that limitation is nothing compared to the appalling ignorance apparently cultivated in the chassidic velt.

Tablepoetry

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 4:44 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

Would a WASP mother stop speaking to her son if he chose to wear veise zocken? Very possibly. What is the difference?

No, I don't think she would stop talking to him just because of the socks.
Now, if he changed his entire life and actually became a chassid, she might stop talking to him. Not just because of appearance, but because she objected to the essence.

But....that doesn't mean he couldn't become a chassid. After all,as a normal WASP, he wouldn't have been married off at nineteen, so he wouldn't have a young wife and three kids whose fate stood in peril. Huge difference. He wouldn't be adrift with no way of supporting himself, chassid or not. He might be socially ostracized, but it's not a guarantee; he might even have a couple of friends or colleagues who would think the change is cool.

Bottom line, his mom might stop talking to him, but the community at large wouldn't go out of their way to ruin his life.

mommy3b2c

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 4:51 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

Btw, I meant become a chossid. Not literally just starting wearing white socks.

Tablepoetry

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 4:58 pm

mommy2b2c wrote:

Btw, I meant become a chossid. Not literally just starting wearing white socks.

OK, sure then, many a WASP mother would stop talking to her son for that. Because that's a major life change. That means the son converted, rejecting almost every thing she raised him to believe in and stand for, changing lifestyles so drastically that his mother probably feels he is an alien now, and an embarrasing one at that.

How is that comparable to the minor infractions people here say cause chassidic parents to stop talking to their kids? Minor infractions, like literally just changing the dress code slightly?

pause

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 5:10 pm

marina wrote:

Oh, Geez. Let me clear this up. Yes, the book describes his wedding night, but in the most general and sensitive way. Nothing really about her, pretty much all about him- two paragraphs tops. How he didn't know ANYTHING about what happens next until literally a few hours before the wedding, and how the experience was kind of like managing to successfully assemble a piece of furniture with someone helping you figure out what goes where. I thought that was a great description by the way.

He also wrote that they both had no idea how a baby is born and worried that maybe surgery was the way it's done. He writes - in one of the most poignant sentences of the book - that he began to become close to his wife after their first child was born, because they "created love."

This is all to share his experiences about the dating and marriage world he lived in. You can't really paint a full picture of the ultra-chareidi life without talking about these issues. And he did it gently and by focusing almost exlusively on himself and his experiences. He generally writes well about his wife and paints her as a sympathetic character who went along with his issues until the community forced her to divorce him. His description of their relationship and break up is probably one of the most amicable I've seen, considering he lost all contact with the most important thing to him- his children.

Then yes, I should read before commenting. If his book is unlike "Unorthodox" in this aspect, then I'm actually looking forward to reading it. Based on your description, it sounds very ok.

marina

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 7:14 pm

pause wrote:

Then yes, I should read before commenting. If his book is unlike "Unorthodox" in this aspect, then I'm actually looking forward to reading it. Based on your description, it sounds very ok.

Comparing Feldman's writing to Deen's is like comparing The Diary of Anne Frank to the National Enquirer.

youngishbear

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 7:28 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

I wouldn't say it's commonplace for parents to stop talking to their kids over an issue like veise zocken or taking off a shtreimel, but it is extremely common for the parent to take it personally. They view their kids as extensions of themselves, and if one of their kids does something that they wouldn't do themselves, it's as if your own hand is hitting you in the face. What would you do to your hand if it started hitting you in the face? Everyone's answer would be different, but I'm pretty sure no one would tolerate it, never mind be happy about it.

Actually, a disproportionate number of people in the community seem to exhibit some symptoms of borderline personality disorder. I have a few half-formed theories why, but nothing I can prove.

Your first paragraph describes codependency, not BPD. I agree there seems to be tremendous over-involvement in the lives of adult children in chassidish circles, but isn't that quintessentially Jewish? All those jokes about Jewish mothers can't possibly be referring only to chassidish yiddenes, can they? Wink

Last edited by youngishbear on Thu, Apr 16 2015, 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

mommy3b2c

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 8:33 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

Aren't we talking about a man who drastically changed his lifestyle, who's family (and community) now thinks of him as an alien?

I think the two scenarios are comparable. I also think both moms are horrible people. Any mom who cuts the connection with their kid is the alien in my opinion.

dancingqueen

Thu, Apr 16 2015, 8:36 pm

[quote="sequoia"

.....If I held you in an underground bunker for 15 years, you may find that tolerable. But that doesn't mean it's okay to kidnap people. Kidnapping people is wrong, even if you don't mind.[/quote]

Kimmy Schmidt!

It's very common in America for conservative parents to end up with a liberal child and vs vsa. I don't really think it's that common to cut off children because of that, but I'm sure it does happen sometimes. But that would be the exception, not the rule.