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random shadchan

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 7:27 pm

Is no one here concerned with the chillul Hashem? I have not read the book, but just finished the Wall Street Journal review, and am appalled.

MagentaYenta

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 7:33 pm

Deen is a good writer, I've been reading his stuff for sometime. The book was not a soap opera filled with emotional hyperbole. It was well worth the $10 I paid for it on Amazon.

Last edited by MagentaYenta on Mon, Apr 13 2015, 7:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

4everonadiet

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 7:33 pm

Maya wrote:

It certainly is a contradiction.
If your rebbe says "move to Lakewood" and you make plans to move to Lakewood, how are you now going to use your critical thinking skills regarding the issue of moving out of Williamsburg? It has been decided for you. You didn't have to do one ounce of thinking for it.

Was it her rabbi who advised her or just a random friend? Maybe she'd never thought Lakewood was an option and then someone told her about it. She did her research and concluded it was the right place for her.

imasoftov

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 7:38 pm

random shadchan wrote:

Is no one here concerned with the chillul Hashem? I have not read the book, but just finished the Wall Street Journal review, and am appalled.

Maya

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 7:44 pm

4everonadiet wrote:

This is not my friend. Debsey wrote it is HER friend, and the couple was advised to move to Lakewood.

debsey

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 7:58 pm

Maya wrote:

This is not my friend. Debsey wrote it is HER friend, and the couple was advised to move to Lakewood.

without putting words in her mouth, I think her husband and a group of other people were advised to move to Lakewood. Initially she didn't want to go, but then made peace with the decision. I know she struggles with some of the things her kids do (like the games yeshivishe kids play on shabbos or even ball during the week) and that she also is not happy to be so far from her family. But I also know she is more happy than not here. Again, this is based on our conversations, so I could be quoting her inaccurately.

dimyona

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 8:06 pm

I don't understand how resigning yourself to a restricted lifestyle or wrestling with a decision someone else makes for you can in any way be interpreted as critical thinking.

Either way, I absolutely loved the book. It brought tears to my eyes several times, and the honest and thoughtfully written anecdotes were both touching and enlightening.

Maya

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 8:18 pm

debsey wrote:

So which part of this process involved her and her husband using their critical thinking skills to make an informed decision?
Poor woman. She can be as educated and well read as she pleases, yet she still can't decide on her own about where it is best for her family to live. What good does all that reading do for her?

HAPPY MOMMY

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 8:39 pm

If someone was advised by a business coach how to run their business, they aren't using critical thinking?! Or if somone was advised by a stock broker to buy a certain stock. They used critical thinking which business coach to use or which stock broker to use.
No rabbi is ever going to say you must move to Lakewood. He probably knew the family and advised them that Lakewood would probably be the best fit for them.

Last edited by HAPPY MOMMY on Tue, Apr 14 2015, 9:16 am; edited 1 time in total

debsey

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 8:48 pm

Maya wrote:

You don't think they had to decide whether or not to take this advice and actually move? They could have stayed in Willy but her husband had an excellent job opportunity here. Being from the culture they are from, they spoke to whoever was their adviser and made their decision to move.

When I ask a shayla or more specifically, an "eitzah" from a gadol, I don't necessarily have to follow it. I have to figure out how and when and where to implement, how much to implement, and whether or not I can make it work. All of that takes critical thinking.

pause

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 9:45 pm

debsey wrote:

I'm gonna agree with Maya here.
Without knowing the poor woman whom we are dissecting here, I would imagine the situation as such that if the rebbe said go, she went and didn't have to employ any critical thinking as to whether it would work, only how it would work. And even that might have included leaving some loose ends because if the rebbe said we should go, then somehow it will all work out iy"h, be"h, and with the rebbe's bracha.

Your being advised to go and her being advised to go have different inherent meanings and different consequences of not fulfilling the advice.

amother

Beige

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 9:48 pm

[quote="causemommysaid"]I just got the book from the library. I'll discuss once I've read it.

I heard good things about it.[/quote
the local llibrary has only 1 copy. there are 20 holds on it. I was number 21. if I get a call to come pick it up before next year chanuka, I'll be happy. not a book I wanna buy and have in my housre.

Maya

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 9:50 pm

In other words, a Litvish gadol gives an eitzah, and a Chassidish rebbe gives a psak. That's the bottom line difference.

Do you know that the Bobov rebbe in Boro Park has a new game he plays? He asks of random newly married men to put on veise zocken and asks their wives to cover their sheitels with a hat. He doesn't suggest, he demands. I would imagine very few, if any, couples deny him the request. That's just the way it works. You can't compare it to an eitzah given by a Litvish rav whose suggestion you can then mull over and think about and come to your own conclusions and decisions.

random shadchan

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 9:54 pm

Does anyone moderate this post for lashon hara? Seems not.

MagentaYenta

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 9:59 pm

random shadchan wrote:

Does anyone moderate this post for lashon hara? Seems not.

You can always volunteer.

random shadchan

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 10:00 pm

I could, but it doesn't appear anyone would want me to!

MagentaYenta

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 10:01 pm

random shadchan wrote:

I could, but it doesn't appear anyone would want me to!

Not to worry, you'll get over it.

random shadchan

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 10:10 pm

Or I could just stop following this discussion. Good night, everyone!

debsey

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 10:17 pm

Maya wrote:

OR - you believe that your rebbe is your "moreh derech" and he knows what's best for you. He tells you to do something that doesn't sit well with you. You wrestle with the decision, back and forth. Debate from all angles (all of which imply critical thinking skills) and then decide to conform or not to conform. Again, compliance does not automatically equal lack of thinking skills!

a jewish woman

Mon, Apr 13 2015, 10:21 pm

marina wrote:

So. Who here has read this book? Want to talk about it? I loved it. It lacked the drama and hyperbole of previous OTD memoirs and the author spoke honestly about his failings and what he misses about his old world and what he regrets. I am also fascinated by it because he went OTD purely for intellectual reasons. No one abused him, no one molested him, his parents didn't get divorced, etc.

Here are some interesting excerpts and links about this book:

http://forward.com/articles/21.....p=all

http://www.jta.org/2015/04/08/.....ldren

Your thoughts?

The book was well written but I have so many mixed feelings about Deen himself. I'm not sure if I would even be able to convey what I'm feeling as I'm still trying to sort it out and make sense of it but I'll try. I thought that Deen was extremely rebellious as a youngster I.e. didn't go to school, read books from his friends sister, and socialized with girls etc all of which foreshadowed his ultimate doom in the skver community. He was a non-conformist to begin with, with non-conformist parents, how long would it take until he choke in a narrow minded chasidishe community and leave?

Another thing that struck me was that he wanted to go to Sqver yeshiva because the entrance exam was less rigid than other yeshiva. (Btw, how many kids from skver actually get a choice as to were to go to school?) It's a cognitive dissonance for me that a well-read, intellectual guy like Deen chose such a yeshiva. I would think that he would really be bored there and perhaps he was which led to his destructive actions.

Overall, I felt really sorry for Deen as he did not really have parents to guide him in this world (that they themselves were clueless about). He also had no means to deal with the mental illness and eventual death of his father. He was physically abused in school which only added to the trauma he already experienced at home. I think that if he would have gotten counseling then it would have prevented a lot of the things he experienced in the sqver community and thereafter.

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