All Who Go Do Not Return

Chayalle

Thu, Jun 11 2015, 2:02 pm

Maya wrote:

Please, let's not deny that these issues are rampant in the Chassidish world, especially in the really insular sects. Trying to minimize it by claiming it's just one couple's problem with communication is wrong.

I do believe these issues might be rampant in really insular sects...and at the same time I also believe that there must be families with strong, loving units within these very sects too.

but someone with a troubled background, sounds like they are practically doomed in these sects, because where would they get the substitute if their own parents don't give it to them?

I have a close relative who suddenly lost his mother as a very young teen, and his father was emotionally unavailable after the loss. He was fortunate to become close to a really special, really great person in the community (not posting names but if I did, most posters here would recognize that name)....who was a warm substitute home for him, and his wife was, too. They made their home his, and he had really good role models....he was able to marry and build a warm family, has married off several children by now....

Could this happen in a community where a Rebbe's wife would not interact with an orphaned boy? Where the family life was strictly gender separate when guests were around? Where would he fill in the gaps?

amother

Honeydew

Thu, Jun 11 2015, 2:02 pm

marina wrote:

You're right. I'm sorry. It's just that with other books like Leah Vincent's or Deborah Feldman's, this kind of criticism was somewhat appropriate- it was her drama, it was specific to her issues, etc. But this book shows the beauty of Judaism as well as its flaws and it comes across as honest and completely plausible. Your criticism seems to be misplaced and also fueled by, like I said, a need to pretend that there are no problems in Skver and that any issues are just specific to the person with the issues.

SO TRUE!

Sadie

Thu, Jun 11 2015, 2:10 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Could this happen in a community where a Rebbe's wife would not interact with an orphaned boy? Where the family life was strictly gender separate when guests were around? Where would he fill in the gaps?

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the bocher who set fire to a man's house an orphan who was really close with the Skver rebbitzin?

amother

Honeydew

Thu, Jun 11 2015, 2:15 pm

Sadie wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the bocher who set fire to a man's house an orphan who was really close with the Skver rebbitzin?

all chasidish rebitzins are close to boys that need it but please please Let's please not go there now,

amother

Honeydew

Thu, Jun 11 2015, 2:16 pm

Sadie wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the bocher who set fire to a man's house an orphan who was really close with the Skver rebbitzin?

and no he was not an orphan. even though his parents wanted to dis-own him after what he did

cbsp

Thu, Jun 11 2015, 2:17 pm

happybeingamom wrote:

My understanding but I can be wrong that Chasidish Yeshivas do not teach the bachurim the mesachtas that pertain to to women. They learn these mesachtas or mishnas after they are married.

I don't think that is correct. I know they learn gitten and kiddushin. They definitely know about a bris post c-section (kaiser shnit) being on Sunday. They're just not necessarily taught what "biah" actually is when it discusses how a man is mekadesh a wife.

I did not read nor do I intend to read the book at this time (logistics of getting to a library more than philosophical) but was the gift given in the context of nidah? It takes time to navigate how to relate to your spouse during nidah during the first few months of marriage even for non chassidish couples. If not then please excuse my conjecture.

Chayalle

Thu, Jun 11 2015, 2:18 pm

Sadie wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the bocher who set fire to a man's house an orphan who was really close with the Skver rebbitzin?

I have no idea. I have no connections to skver or what goes on there (beyond the skver Rebetzin being my very, very distant relative....but I don't believe I've ever met her.)

My posts are based on my knowledge of other Chasidus's (sp? gr?) and what I've learned here and elsewhere.

Chayalle

Thu, Jun 11 2015, 3:29 pm

leah233 wrote:

Chayalle,

If he was coming to me as a troubled teenager yes I would feel sympathy for him. But under the current circumstances, no I don't.If his issue was that people should treated him differently I might agree with him but it isn't.

I feel that his past has contributed to his present troubles, on top of the society he has been in. I feel that I can't judge his current circumstances.

Over and over I hear and see how important the teen years are. It's when a person develops emotional capacity and depth (or doesn't). As the mother of two teens, I put in alot to keep my relationship with them positive, and to help them to develop into emotionally healthy young ladies. I think someone who is missing those crucial developmental phases will have a much harder time as an adult. This book seems to demonstrate alot of that.

If you grew up in a normal, healthy, warm family unit, be careful of your judgement against him. As it says in Avos - Al tadin as chavercha ad shetagia l'mikomo. Or - don't judge a person until you are in his shoes.

And keep in mind that he is still struggling. It would be more beneficial to pray for him than to judge him.

wifenmother

Thu, Jun 11 2015, 3:45 pm

Maya and Honeydew AMother please read the excerpt. The very stilted conversations and interactions depicted there are not the standard norm for a chasidish couple married for six months. I agree that it takes longer to figure out intimacy for couples from far less sheltered communities, but that's not the discussion at hand.

Raisin

Thu, Jun 11 2015, 3:45 pm

bat1 wrote:

people in her circles don't read this book.
and you risk getting exposed just be gettin married

You don't think Deen's ex wife or any of her family or friends are reading this book? I'm sure some of them are, even if they wouldn't normally, simply because it is by someone they know well.

Barbara

Thu, Jun 11 2015, 3:56 pm

Raisin wrote:

You don't think Deen's ex wife or any of her family or friends are reading this book? I'm sure some of them are, even if they wouldn't normally, simply because it is by someone they know well.

Maybe. But here's the thing. She is portrayed sympathetically. He never blames her. Apart from being clear that he hadn't wanted to marry her -- and yes, that's not very nice -- he never says a bad word about her.

Chayalle

Thu, Jun 11 2015, 4:02 pm

Barbara wrote:

I do feel for her. I wouldn't want people to read anything about me and my personal life, without my explicit permission, regardless of how I am portrayed.

zaq

Thu, Jun 11 2015, 5:24 pm

Tablepoetry wrote:

The excerpt sounds very promising.
As for the examples a past poster gave of what a troublemaker he was....my lord, it seems the worst the boy did was skip school and throw spitballs. That's a troublemaker? Considering his background, that is almost angelic.

One thing does bother me though. It's the victims that always exist in such a memoir. Here it's his wife. Who wants their most private moments narrated to the world? It would pain anyone, but how much more so a woman so sheltered and cloistered. I know he doesn't say anything explicit, but even what he does say, the way he describes their initial love making (two kisses and bang bang), and then how they improved, the reference to 'discovering love' -- it's too much, feels like a raw exposure of someone against their will.

This is in fact the one thing for which I cannot forgive Deen. If he had written under a pseudonym and disguised the community, people who knew them may have conjectured but would have had no proof. Laying such intimate moments bare to the gaze of the world is IMO an even bigger betrayal of his ex-wife than going OTD. A diary is one thing and a memoir another. In the interest of --what? Gaining readership? Satisfying the publisher's minimum requirement of prurient-interest?-- Deen sacrifices the dignity, modesty and privacy of an innocent woman in whose world dignity, modesty and privacy are everything. There was no need to go into such specifics. Shame on him.

Raisin

Thu, Jun 11 2015, 5:52 pm

Barbara wrote:

So, you would be ok with a former boyfriend or husband publishing a book about you or one of your loved ones, in which s-xual details etc are mentioned?