Ds 26 yo came for succos walks without yarmulke

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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Succos

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amother

Acacia

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 8:16 pm

amother Ginger wrote:

A kippa is Kodesh. I'd it wasn't why do men wear it? Not for decoration purposes I think. And trust me, their hair would look much nicer without this thing perched on it.

The halacha is that a man must cover his head when reciting a bracha or davening. Back in the day, German Jews customarily did not wear a yarmulke unless they were eating/davening/in shul etc.
It has become accepted to wear one at all times in most circles, but it is not an object of kedusha especially. (Besides the fact that a head covering does not need to be a yarmulke specifically. Any sort of hat will do, including a casual baseball cap, which definitely holds no kedusha.)

Rubber Ducky

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 8:18 pm

amother Steel wrote:

Seems like he is fully aware. Leave him alone and daven for him.

I agree with this. Your son is an adult. It's nice that he is with you for Sukkos.

Last edited by Rubber Ducky on Mon, Oct 02 2023, 8:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

Rubber Ducky

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 8:20 pm

Delete — accidentally quoted myself!

Last edited by Rubber Ducky on Mon, Oct 02 2023, 8:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Obsidian

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 8:21 pm

amother Ginger wrote:

A kippa is Kodesh. I'd it wasn't why do men wear it? Not for decoration purposes I think. And trust me, their hair would look much nicer without this thing perched on it.

If a kippah was Kodesh - you couldn't toss it out in the regular bin without thought.

amother

Cadetblue

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 8:22 pm

amother Chicory wrote:

What would happen if you tell him that he needs to follow the rules in your house which is that all males are to wear the yarmulke indoors and outdoors. So if he lives in or stays at your house he must wear the yarmulke at all times. What would happen if you say it?

She would most likely hurt her relationship with her son, and push him away. He might think twice in the future about coming to visit or staying over for a yomtov. He is an adult and can decide for himself what to do, and he is not committing a major sin in front of his family and community. It might not be socially acceptable, but it’s not halacha that he’s openly disobeying.

I had a period of time when I was OTD, so I can speak from my own experience as well as a lot of my friends. These kinds of rules make me feel like you are ashamed of me, embarrassed to take me outside unless I dress up like someone who isn’t me. It makes me feel like I can’t be myself in front of my family, that all you feel when you look at me is disappointment. One of my parents was actually very supportive and respectful during my journey, and in turn I learned to be respectful of others. I was careful to dress tzniusly in others homes, or in Jewish- owned business around the neighborhood, and I even censored myself in my own home when my younger siblings were around. I never brought non-kosher food inside the house, I didn’t break Shabbos in front of my family. I was respectful to them because they were respectful of me. A different parent, and lot of my relatives as well, were not respectful towards me. They constantly made comments and insisted on rules for how I should dress, live, behave. It drove me crazy, made me feel unloved, made me resentful. There was no understanding, no compromising, just “my house my rules”. So I stopped visiting, my relationships dwindled. I felt like I wasn’t a person, just an extension of my family. And if I didn’t reflect them, mirror them, then I wasn’t wanted.

OP you might feel embarrassed when your neighbors see your son, but would you rather embarrass and shame him? That’s the trade-off, in my opinion. He’s 26, an adult. Let him be himself, let him feel accepted even if he doesn’t do things exactly the way you wanted him to.

Ema of 5

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 8:22 pm

amother Ginger wrote:

I don't think OP was even talking about judgement, that's a closed case. Speaking as an aunt to a precious nephew who no longer wears a kippa, and a sister to his father who tries so hard to get past it, this really doesn't help.
Do you know why Jews cover their heads? It's not only about Halacha or mitzvot, he is denouncing something sacred in Judism. It hurts.

I’m sorry it doesn’t help you. As the mom of a kid who doesn’t wear a kippa, it helps me to remember that he isn’t violating halacha by not wearing it.
I didn’t say it doesn’t hurt. I said it sometimes makes it easier.

Ema of 5

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 8:45 pm

amother Ginger wrote:

A kippa is Kodesh. If it wasn't why do men wear it? Not for decoration purposes I think. And trust me, their hair would look much nicer without this thing perched on it.

Men wear a kippa because they need to wear something on their head (not specifically a kippa) when making a bracha, and it’s easy to keep it there all day.
A beketcha is also symbolic of Judaism. A Magen David is as well. People have been discriminated against for wearing both. Neither are holy.

amother

Forestgreen

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 2:58 am

amother Chicory wrote:

We tried that with OTD 20 year old.
He told us we were threatening him and actually threatened us that he would move out and become a lone soldier.
So we keep our mouths shut and mourn our 13 year old who almost certainly will end up not frum bcz. of his older brother's horrible influence

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 3:40 am

amother Ginger wrote:

A kippa is Kodesh. If it wasn't why do men wear it? Not for decoration purposes I think. And trust me, their hair would look much nicer without this thing perched on it.

No, a kipa in and of itself is NOT holy. Its a head covering. Any head covering is ok.
Many men wear hats and not even a kipa under it.
The purpose of a kipa is to cover a man's head when he prays and makes brachot. It became a minhag to be wear all of the time.
But a kipa is not holy. You can throw a ripped one in the trash.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 3:42 am

amother Ginger wrote:

I don't see how this helps OP unless she's sefardi where in some communities they don't hold if wearing a kippa at all times
Everywhere else a kippa is part of the dress code and it's hard to digest it when a grown man chooses not to wear it.
I'm sorry OP, just sympathizing. Loads of hugs.

I know a few ashkenazi men who also dont alwats wear a kipa. The first time I saw that I aas shocked. After I saw ut many times, I realized not everuone follows the minhag the same way we learned it.

amother

Teal

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 5:55 am

My DS was OTD for several years. BH he has come back. But he's very intelligent and also a smart-alec. He lives with us and insisted that the reasons for not playing musical instruments on Shabbat were stupid and he could be shomer shabbes and still play.

So I said to myself, he's mid-20's, stubborn as a mule, there is no point in me calling him out on it. (Believe me this is totally out of character for me) Lo and behold within a year or two he stopped.

Not saying your DS will change but nagging him will not help.'

You should have nachas.

amother

Tanzanite

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 7:10 am

My son stopped wearing a kippah at age 14. He only wore it for school, which was required.
As soon as he graduated he never put it on again. We choose to pick our battles. It's hard enough getting him to keep kosher in our home.
He's now in his 20s and we have a great relationship with him, even though he doesn't keep shabbos and eats treif outside.

imaima

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 7:16 am

amother Teal wrote:

Let’s not pretend that the rules for not playing musical instruments on shabbes make sense to anyone. We follow them out of respect

amother

Arcticblue

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 7:58 am

amother Ginger wrote:

Yes, it hurts. It always hurts when a child denounces something that is important to their parents. Jewish and non Jewish alike.

But you know what hurts even more? You child breaking off any relationship with you, crossing you out of their life completely.

amother

Chicory

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 9:46 am

amother Forestgreen wrote:

Ok, this scenario is what I had in mind when I asked my question. I didn't want to come across as confrontational so I didn't do more than ask the question, but really, why should parents be scared of their OTD child who flaunt the rules (and their should be basic rules in a functional home) and consequentially influence the rest of the family in a negative way towards Yidishkeit? I've seen this happen numerous times where the oldest child goes OTD, the parents are afraid of saying anything fearing they'll push away the OTD child so they let them disregard the rules they should be enforcing in their own home and this situation, as well as the OTD child themselves, very often influences the younger children and in very many cases the siblings follow the adults on the OTD path or near it. And even the children who stay frum suffer from embarrassment and being given less than normal attention because the parents' pain is overwhelming because of the actions of their OTD child, their minds are constantly reactive to their OTDs actions and they cannot parent their other kids effectively.

I know it's painful, but it's unfair to the entire family, including the parents, that children are allowed to be so disrespectful to their parents. Do not let yourself be disrespected as a parent, it will influence the other children. OTD children should know they are welcomed in their parents home as long as they follow and respect the rules in the house.

Although it's excruciating to have a child disconnect and not visit at all should they choose to disregard the rules of the house, it is worse when that one child messes up the entire family. AND parents are people too! They don't have to suffer embarrassment from their children totally disregarding them in all aspects! People's Yidishkeit are between them and Hashem, but parents have a right and a duty to demand children adhere to the rules in their home!

We have this scenerio playing out approximately 3,500 years ago. Sara Imeinu told Avraham to send away Yishmael because he was a bad influence on Yitzhok and Hashem told Avraham he should listen to Sara. A wayward child should not destroy a home. A home must have rules that are enforced otherwise the foundation of the home collapses. And then starts the excuses that a kippah is not holy, it doesn't have to be worn, we need to look away at tznius, etc, etc, etc. That's right, the foundations of Yidishkeit start to crumble.

amother

Yellow

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 10:06 am

amother Chicory wrote:

As the parent of an OTD child I vehemently disagree. Any family that has a child who goes OTD is automatically affected. The younger children may or may not also go OTD, regardless of how you treat the older one. Often when the younger children see the older child being rejected, they recognize that their parents love them depending on their frumkeit. For some of them it causes them to stay frum out of fear only which can have serious repercussions when they're older. And for some of them it pushes them away from yiddishkeit.

Your approach used to be the accepted way. Today there are very few rabbonim who still agree with that approach. In many cases it causes the parents to completely lose all of their children. Being accepting and loving of your OTD kids will very often result in them coming back to yiddishkeit or at least staying somewhat connected.

Anyone who has struggling children should find themselves a rav or mentor to help them navigate the situation. You can also join Kesher Nafshi which is an amazing support for parents of OTD kids.

amother

Tanzanite

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 10:09 am

amother Yellow wrote:

Agree completely!!

tichellady

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 10:13 am

It’s time for you to grieve that your child isn’t exactly as you wish. He’s an adult now and he doesn’t need to hear what you think or want in terms of his dress. You need to respect him.

tichellady

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 10:20 am

amother Chicory wrote:

If a family’s Jewish practice relies only on seeing other people do it then it’s not very integral to who they are. Everyone, born frum or not, needs to decide how they will lead their life. We all know that it’s a choice to not be frum or to not keep certain halachot, or in this case, certain cultural customs that aren’t halacha. If you want your kids to have to decide between keeping halakca and being part of the family, that’s up to you, but that’s certainly not a choice I would make

amother

Chicory

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 10:20 am

amother Yellow wrote:

I don't agree that parents should reject a child and they should make it clear to their OTD child and the rest of their children that they are not rejecting their OTD child. That is absolutely not what I said in my post. I said that the child must follow the rules on the home. It is up to the child, who are often adults as in this case, to follow the rules. It is the child who rejects the parents if they don't want to follow the rules. A child who is respectful should always be welcome in the home. As I said, Yidishkeit is between a person and Hashem, that does not mean that children can do and live however they want in their their parents home. Parents are not doormats.

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