Ds 26 yo came for succos walks without yarmulke

amother

Chicory

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 10:24 am

tichellady wrote:

If a family’s Jewish practice relies only on seeing other people do it then it’s not very integral to who they are. Everyone, born frum or not, needs to decide how they will lead their life. We all know that it’s a choice to not be frum or to not keep certain halachot, or in this case, certain cultural customs that aren’t halacha. If you want your kids to have to decide between keeping halakca and being part of the family, that’s up to you, but that’s certainly not a choice I would make

Certainly when in an environment that Yidishkeit is trampled upon and disregarded it effects everyone. We don't live in a vacuum. The immorality today in the secular world effects everyone. Everyone's actions effect everyone. You are effected by others actions and thoughts to a certain extent whether you realize it or not. Certainly in a family with young children, their older siblings actions will influence them in one way or another.

tichellady

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 10:28 am

amother Chicory wrote:

Right but also teaching your young kids that they will be disregarded if they don’t act as you want will also influence them. You can choose what values you want to pass on.

amother

Lightgreen

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 10:32 am

amother Chicory wrote:

Ok, this scenario is what I had in mind when I asked my question. I didn't want to come across as confrontational so I didn't do more than ask the question, but really, why should parents be scared of their OTD child who flaunt the rules (and their should be basic rules in a functional home) and consequentially influence the rest of the family in a negative way towards Yidishkeit? I've seen this happen numerous times where the oldest child goes OTD, the parents are afraid of saying anything fearing they'll push away the OTD child so they let them disregard the rules they should be enforcing in their own home and this situation, as well as the OTD child themselves, very often influences the younger children and in very many cases the siblings follow the adults on the OTD path or near it. And even the children who stay frum suffer from embarrassment and being given less than normal attention because the parents' pain is overwhelming because of the actions of their OTD child, their minds are constantly reactive to their OTDs actions and they cannot parent their other kids effectively.

I know it's painful, but it's unfair to the entire family, including the parents, that children are allowed to be so disrespectful to their parents. Do not let yourself be disrespected as a parent, it will influence the other children. OTD children should know they are welcomed in their parents home as long as they follow and respect the rules in the house.

Although it's excruciating to have a child disconnect and not visit at all should they choose to disregard the rules of the house, it is worse when that one child messes up the entire family. AND parents are people too! They don't have to suffer embarrassment from their children totally disregarding them in all aspects! People's Yidishkeit are between them and Hashem, but parents have a right and a duty to demand children adhere to the rules in their home!

We have this scenerio playing out approximately 3,500 years ago. Sara Imeinu told Avraham to send away Yishmael because he was a bad influence on Yitzhok and Hashem told Avraham he should listen to Sara. A wayward child should not destroy a home. A home must have rules that are enforced otherwise the foundation of the home collapses. And then starts the excuses that a kippah is not holy, it doesn't have to be worn, we need to look away at tznius, etc, etc, etc. That's right, the foundations of Yidishkeit start to crumble.

I think many OTD kids, especially adult ones, can handle practical house rules, such as no shoes indoors, no food in the bedrooms, no drinking straight from the milk container, no loud noise after 10pm.

But if you are making rules about how people have to keep halachos or minhagim, it feels manipulative and dishonest to pretend those are "house rules." Wearing a kipah is not a house rule.

amother

Yellow

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 10:32 am

amother Chicory wrote:

I don't agree that parents should reject a child and they should make it clear to their OTD child and the rest of their children that they are not rejecting their OTD child. That is absolutely not what I said in my post. I said that the child must follow the rules on the home. It is up to the child, who are often adults as in this case, to follow the rules. It is the child who rejects the parents if they don't want to follow the rules. A child who is respectful should always be welcome in the home. As I said, Yidishkeit is between a person and Hashem, that does not mean that children can do and live however they want in their their parents home. Parents are not doormats.

Most OTD children are not going to be respectful. Most of them, are not in a healthy place for a variety of reasons, which is why they are acting out. Giving ultimatums and making their acceptance in your home dependant on their religious actions, IS rejecting your children.

When parents have a healthy relationship with Hashem and yiddishkeit, and a healthy relationship with their children, they don't consider their child who is having issues with yiddishkeit to be treating their parents like a doormat. They understand that their child is struggling and that this is between their child and Hashem, not between their child and themselves.

I'm not minimizing how painful this is. It is one of the most painful things I've lived through. And yes, it does feel like my child is rejecting everything that is most important to me. But I work on myself all the time to remember that it's not about me. It's about what my child is dealing with right now. I've learned to daven for my child to grow up to be a healthy adult, and hopefully once they get healthy they will be able to connect to Hashem and yiddishkeit. But the main thing is that they should be emotionally healthy, because that's where this struggle is coming from.

amother

Chicory

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 10:39 am

tichellady wrote:

Right but also teaching your young kids that they will be disregarded if they don’t act as you want will also influence them. You can choose what values you want to pass on.

The parents are being disregarded. Their feelings, values and rules are being trampled upon. This child is an adult, he's not a baby. Adult children are being babied today. The values being imparted to the other kids in the case where children can flaunt the rules and disregard the parents feelings. It is the parents who are being disregarded.

The fact is that I see over and over again that when an older teen or adult child disregards the parents rules and feelings, it effects the entire family in a negative way and very, very often the younger children get influenced to go OTD themselves or live close to that lifestyle.

amother

Chicory

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 10:44 am

amother Lightgreen wrote:

Wearing a kippah rule is manipulative but drinking straight from a container is not? Perhaps not letting a kid bring in treife food in the house is manipulative as well? Perhaps not wearing a mini skirt in the house is manipulative as well? But no shoes indoors is not manipulative...

In other words, rules respecting Jewish values is manipulative but other rules are not...that is the message you are imparting to your family.

amother

Obsidian

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 10:46 am

amother Chicory wrote:

not drinking out of the container is a hygiene rule. how is it manipulative?

amother

Lightgreen

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 10:51 am

amother Chicory wrote:

It's manipulative to call something a house rule when you are trying to make them observe Judaism in a certain way.

Bringing in treif food can be a house rule, as it has implications for house logistics and housekeeping. I don't let even non-Jewish friends eat treif food at my house, because I don't want it to contaminate my stuff. But I don't tell my nonfrum nephews to wear kipot.

amother

Chicory

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 10:59 am

amother Obsidian wrote:

not drinking out of the container is a hygiene rule. how is it manipulative?

Are you placing the value of being hygienic over Yidishkeit? If being frum is what you value that is the rules that you enforce in your home, these rules should have at least as much value as being hygienic rules... If a child drinks from bottles in their own apartment or their friends apartment you will not not welcome them in your home, but in your home he can't drink from a bottle.

If being hygienic only has value and not Yidishkeit then of course, rules that show the importance of Yiddishkeit will be manipulative...

tichellady

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 10:59 am

amother Chicory wrote:

Did you even read the initial post?

amother

Lightgreen

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 11:02 am

amother Chicory wrote:

Are you placing the value of being hygienic over Yidishkeit? If being frum is what you value that is the rules that you enforce in your home, these rules should have at least as much value as being hygienic rules... If a child drinks from bottles in their own apartments or their friends apartment you will not not welcome them in your home, but in your home he can't drink from a bottle.

If being hygienic only has value and not Yidishkeit then of course, rules that show the importance of Yiddishkeit will be manipulative...

You can't make someone else value Yiddishkeit if they don't value it. That's the point.

By the way, I wouldn't kick a child out of my home for violating house rules either. We don't allow food in bedrooms, but I wouldn't die on that hill at the cost of total alienation. I'm just saying that many, probably most, OTD kids aren't going to be triggered by basic pareve house rules and not going to feel manipulated by them.

amother

Chicory

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 11:05 am

amother Lightgreen wrote:

There's no implications for housekeeping if they get their own disposable utensils for their treife food and don't use yours... Practically speaking though, they MAY contaminate your stuff. Certainly a child not wearing a yarmulkah will contaminate the atmosphere of the house, it shows disrespect to the parents and disregard to Yiddishkeit and that is precisely what parents have a right to want to prevent that. What the child does when he's not staying at his parents home is, as I said earlier, between them and Hashem. But parents have a right to not to have a polluted the atmosphere in their own home.

amother

Chicory

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 11:11 am

amother Lightgreen wrote:

Of course no one can force anyone to value Yiddishkeit, parents can't force their kids to value it either. I am talking about respecting parents by respecting their rules.

Well, alienation for bringing food in the room may be too severe but Yidishkeit rules should be more important than pareve house rules. Yiddishkeit rules effect the atmosphere in the home. No parent will be embarrassed if a kid brings in food in their room, but they are devastated when their kid comes into the Sukkah without a yarmulkah...as they should be.

amother

Obsidian

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 11:13 am

amother Chicory wrote:

Are you placing the value of being hygienic over Yidishkeit? If being frum is what you value that is the rules that you enforce in your home, these rules should have at least as much value as being hygienic rules... If a child drinks from bottles in their own apartments or their friends apartment you will not not welcome them in your home, but in your home he can't drink from a bottle.

If being hygienic only has value and not Yidishkeit then of course, rules that show the importance of Yiddishkeit will be manipulative...

I'm not at all following your logic.

If you ask someone to wear a kippah in your home, you are manipulating a situation to your benefit.

everyone in the household over the age of 4 can understand why we don't drink from the container.

The adult child must wear a kippah rule - done as not to influence younger children - is manipulative. As the reason men wear kippot isn't meant to be about influencing others.

amother

Chicory

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 11:23 am

amother Obsidian wrote:

The reason men wear a kippah is to show that God is above them. Not wearing a kippah in a family that wears kippahs is a statement that you don't agree that God is above. If having a rule that a male family member must wear a yarmulkah to prevent disregarding this vital statement in your home is called manipulative, but hygienic rules are not manipulative, then I just have different values than you. In my home there are different values and priorities.

amother

Yellow

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 11:31 am

amother Chicory wrote:

Of course no one can force anyone to value Yiddishkeit, parents can't force their kids to value it either. I am talking about respecting parents by respecting their rules.

I want to respond to this because I think this is where we disagree. In our house we don't listen to secular music. But my OTD child does. And even though it hurts me, I respect and love my child and stay silent. And my child respects and loves me. Do you know how I know? If there's ever a curse word during a song my child will instantly shut that song and apologize. During sefira and the 3 weeks my child will only play a capella secular music in front of us, no real music. My child is struggling with their yiddishkeit and for whatever reason secular music is important to them and they often dont want to use airpods. But they respect and love us enough to try to make it as easy for us as possible.

Being in this parsha for so long, I've gotten to know many other parents who are also in this situation. Almost all of the parents who are accepting of their children have similar types of stories. The son who put on a yarmulke when the grandparents came to visit, the dd who wore a somewhat tznius dress to a family simcha, the child who makes sure to say a brocha in front of their parent. It's going to be something different for each child and maybe even each day. But if you show your child that you love and accept them, there's a much better chance that they will do the same. It may not be today or even next year, but eventually.

The parents who reject their children almost never get them back.

Ema of 5

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 11:31 am

amother Lightgreen wrote:

Many of my house rules are based in torah. It is not manipulative to enforce them as house rules just because they are based in torah. I don’t allow treif in my house because the torah doesn’t allow it. That is the reason. Is it manipulative to enforce it just because it’s based in torah?

amother

Obsidian

Tue, Oct 03 2023, 11:33 am

amother Chicory wrote:

I don't think we agree to what the term manipulative means.