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Salary question

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amother

Mon, Feb 19 2024, 9:32 am

I work for a frum non profit. I love the work I do but the organization is pretty awful in terms of its management. Female employees have very little opportunity for advancement. While I can even see from the 990 forms that the males on top get yearly nice raises, me and a bunch of my colleagues haven’t gotten a raise in over ten years. Those of you in the frum non profit world, is this the norm? Is this acceptable in light of “we just don’t have the funds to give raises and this is the sacrifice made to do chessed work”? I know I can leave. I am certainly not being held captive. But I do love my work, I love the programs I’ve created, and the families I work with, and it’s so hard to even think of leaving. But I also feel hurt and demoralized by this. Trying to sort this out. Would love to hear from any of you in this arena. Thank you

amother

Ecru

Mon, Feb 19 2024, 10:21 am

Have you recently asked for a raise, and if so what did they say? If you don't ask and just keep showing up for work every day, they may just take you for granted and keep paying you your old salary. You have to be your own advocate. If they've repeatedly said no over the years, that's a different story...

amother

Mon, Feb 19 2024, 10:26 am

amother Ecru wrote:

I asked several years ago and got a very strong no. I sort of asked last year (wasn’t such a strong push because the time before when I asked I found it so hurtful I literally didn’t want to go thru that all again) and was told sorry no money.

Growing

Mon, Feb 19 2024, 10:43 am

I think even in the non-profits where they give annual raises; the directors get a bigger cut than the people reporting to them even if they're very instrumental
Have you asked for a raise?

Growing

Mon, Feb 19 2024, 10:49 am

Our posts must have crossed in cyberspace bec I didnt see the question or response re raise

In this case it just is what it is

I don't think there are 'norms' in this arena

I definitely don't think it is okay but that's just me

amother

Tiffanyblue

Mon, Feb 19 2024, 10:58 am

If you can prove they are only giving raises to the men then you have a lawsuit. It is illegal to pay men more money than women. Done. Tell them that you know they are doing this and you know they have money to pay the men more so they have money to pay you more. It will be hard but necessary. I had this conversation and it was definitely out of my comfort zone bt what they are doing is disgusting.

amother

Gardenia

Mon, Feb 19 2024, 11:06 am

amother Tiffanyblue wrote:

This - but it needs to be done appropriately without direct accusations. Can you first gather the data so that you have the evidence for it? I.e. bring references to the forms from previous years showing increases for males versus none for females.

Then I would 'ask' them to explain versus accusing them. I would act all confused and inquire - " this seems strange to me both in terms of funds and laws. It seems like there is funds available for increases and it appears to be going only to males. Can you clarify that if there are indeed no funds, how is it that the men are continuously getting increases? And I don't think you'd be breaking discrimination laws by allocating raises only to men. So how is this happening."

Be prepared though for pushback - and possible hostility too.

amother

Foxglove

Mon, Feb 19 2024, 11:48 am

You gotta be assertive. Thats how the men get it. If they wouldn’t they would leave.

Edited to clarify- they pay men more because they know they would never eat it. You have tons of experience- do yourself and all women a favor and tell them that if they don’t bump you MASSIVELY your leaving

amother

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 1:13 am

Thanks so there’s likely enough to be lawsuit worthy but this is a chessed org and I’m not prepared to go that route for now as I care too much about what the organization does. I also don’t want to threaten bec then they may short term give what I’m asking for but long term it will become impossible to work with them.

ittsamother

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 1:24 am

I don't think we're saying threaten per se. We're saying put them on the spot to give an answer about how there can be no money to give you a raise but somehow there is money to give the men raises.

myname1

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 4:46 am

It doesn't sound like it's necessarily male vs female here. You said the males are the higher ups. So There are maybe 5 men in charge of the organization getting high salaries and yearly raises and maybe 20 women secretaries and the like getting lower salaries and no raises? Sounds annoying and unfair, but not necessarily discrimination, even if you would want to try to sue. They want a bunch of cheap labor down low and don't need to pay high because if you leave they think they could easily replace you. The guys up top they see as less replaceable, and they're probably right. So there's no use really comparing and complaining and you need to decide if you still value the organization enough to stay.

amother

Silver

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 7:35 am

I work for a frum nonprofit and got raises when I asked. Nothing huge, but like 5k (which actually is a 10% increase for me).

So I’d say at my place, there are raises but nothing lavish, not big bucks. I am fulfilled by my job and love it.

However if you are very underpaid it might be time to tell them you’re moving on, if you feel you need to and their salary doesn’t work for you

amother

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 7:45 am

myname1 wrote:

The women I’m describing aren’t secretaries. They are the professionals who do all the direct client work— mostly mental health professionals. And having all men as the leadership plus a token one female is in itself a discrimination issue but that’s a different topic. We are prob harder to replace than the male administration actually. We are the ones who run the actual programs and deal with the clients and know the ins and outs of how to run the day to day organization. If I left it would actually be extremely hard to replace me, and a large part of what holds me back is that I know the clients would suffer so much if I left. This is what keeps all of us there essentially and they know we are so attached to our work that we would have a hard time leaving. The few that left in last two years actually still haven’t been replaced bec we can’t find anybody with their skill set. So the rest of us actually have to work even harder to do their jobs too.

amother

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 7:47 am

amother Silver wrote:

How often do you get these small raises?

amother

Silver

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 7:48 am

amother OP wrote:

How often do you get these small raises?

Every other year or if I took on a large new responsibility during the year it could be two years in a row

imasinger

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 7:54 am

Is there someone you can ask IRL for coaching about pushing for a raise? Would you be willing to read more about it?

I think you took that "hard no" too much to heart. It's all part of the game. If your work is more valuable than your pay, explain why. Show them the going rate in for profit and other nonprofit places. If they don't have it in this year's budget, you can say, "when do I need to have this conversation in order to get what I need in planning next year's budget?"

amother

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 8:15 am

imasinger wrote:

I think your points are all true. I have no idea how to find the going rate especially in the Jewish world.

amother

Burlywood

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 8:47 am

I work in the corporate world rather than the frum world, and this is one of the reasons I'm grateful for it (although there are obviously other drawbacks), where there's no appointing men only in token leadership positions while the real burden is carried by the women. Although it might be fairly typical for those in leadership positions to get better raises than the peons in the "velt," at least you'd be taking the sexism out of it by having women equally share those leadership roles. Coincidentally, I'm a cpa with a specialty in NFPs and I prepare 990s for 20+ years. :-)

You have to talk to them. Imasinger gave good advice. Take the emotion out of it. Present your case. It's hard to do, but you have to. They will continue to underpay you so long as you let them. And they are banking on you being too chicken to actually leave due to your loyalty to the people you serve. Well, if you did have to leave over pay, YOU should feel no guilt. That's all on the leadership, making the big bucks. Even if you don't have a way of getting comparable data, your case for never getting a raise in 10 years is compelling enough.
Example:
You: I would like to discuss a raise.
Them: (vehemently) there's no money for that at all!
You: Well, I'm sorry to tell you that I cannot work for a place that has not raised me once in 10 years. Surely you agree that is not tenable or fair. I also happen to know from looking at the 990 that you certainly do give raises, so I would hope you would see my work as also valuable and worthy of fair compensation.
Them: well there's just no money for it.
You: So..are you saying you will never raise me at all, no matter how much you raise other people or in to reward the good work I do? That is good information for me to have so I can make the right decision for me and my family. Thank you for this talk. (Walk away).
And you may have to actually leave over this. Obviously, you wouldn't leave on the spot, but you would have to be looking on the side.

Here's a website that has helped me very much grow professionally.She has whole sections on "how to ask for a raise." Warning: she is VERY left wing/liberal. If you can get over her overuse of they/them pronouns and other such, you can really learn a lot of professional advice from her website.
https://www.askamanager.org/

amother

cornflower

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 8:49 am

SUPPLY AND DEMAND
Are you ready to leave if they refuse to give you a raise?
If you would leave would you get a higher salary elsewhere?
Do you live your job enough that you're ready to take a pay cur because of it?
Can they easily find someone else to do your job?

I don't think you'll get anywhere with discrimination lawsuit... especially if it's a frum non profit organization.

safetynet1

Tue, Feb 20 2024, 8:54 am

I work in a capacity where I may be able to advise you about this. If you want you can Pm me to discuss this. Mental Health non profit

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