Rav Elyashiv paskens against use of shabat elevators

Zus

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 12:22 am

http://muqata.blogspot.com/200......html

Harav Elyashiv comes with a new psak that assurs the use of shabat elevators. He says that because of new technology, by using a shabat elevator one does chilul shabat mideorayta. What's interesting is that many people don't automatically accept this new psak halacha.
I can imagine that this psak is going to start many discussions, because (almost) everybody relies on shabat elevators.

shalhevet

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 12:35 am

Zus wrote:

It's not new at all.

Quote:

I can imagine that this psak is going to start many discussions, because (almost) everybody relies on shabat elevators.

I don't know any chareidim who have ever used Shabbat elevators, unless for the elderly and/or sick in case of reasonably great need.

In fact, in Maayanei haYeshua hospital they do not have Shabbat elevators on principle. After I gave birth on Shabbat a non-Jew takes you in the elevator from cheder leida to yoldot.

lilacdreams

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 12:40 am

shalhevet I dont know how big MY is but I just cant see that being practical in SZ or EK hospitals - there are so many people using the lifts on shabbes at any given time (and I am talking about sick/labouring women etc) that there would need to be an army of non jews to help with that. (SZ the labour ward is on 9th floor)

For now though I will still be using the lift with my yoldot - although dh's normally walk up anyway.

shalhevet

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 12:44 am

I said chareidi rabbonim do allow the lift to be used for sick/ elderly, even not a choleh sheyeish bo sakana. I don't know if that has changed with the new lifts.

I think MH just did this as being a better (but not the only) solution.

Did you ask a shaila about going in the lift with a yoledet? Because any extra person adds to the melachos done (this was in Rav Elyashiv's psak printed in the paper yesterday).

malki22

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 12:49 am

shalhevet wrote:

I don't know any chareidim who have ever used Shabbat elevators, unless for the elderly and/or sick in case of reasonably great need.

I live in central Jerusalem in a VERY charadi area (which is mostly anglo, but also pretty Israeli) and I would say 60-70 percent of people use the shabbat elevator. Most of them are relying on the pesak of Reb Shlomo Zalman Aurbach.

lilacdreams

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 12:49 am

shalhevet wrote:

of course I asked! I was told is she needs me I can go up with her - which is why dh normally walks up - she doesnt need him really (unless I am not with her yet)

Inspired

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 2:24 am

shalhevet wrote:

Did you ask a shaila about going in the lift with a yoledet? Because any extra person adds to the melachos done (this was in Rav Elyashiv's psak printed in the paper yesterday).

You aren't seriously suggesting that any rav would say leave a laboring woman alone in an elevator? If a tomechet laida is allowed to drive to the hospital on shabbos to be with the woman how could it possibly be an issue to make further possible chillul shabbos to be with her in the elevator. A choleh should not be alone in an elevator- they get stuck, they can take a long time. If the tomechet is supposed to be with the woman to help her she is certainly needed in the elevator.

Isramom8

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 2:27 am

Is it better to walk up the stairs in Crocs?

In our family, I rely on them if I'm pregnant or have a baby in a stroller, DH and DFIL (who is close to 80 bah"r) don't rely on them, and we teach the kids that if they are perfectly capable of walking, there is no reason to ride in a Shabbos elevator - but we don't yell at them if they do.

You have to be careful not to block the door or hold it open to gain more time - once the buzzer sounds, you're not supposed to stand in the way.

shalhevet

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 2:37 am

Inspired wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Did you ask a shaila about going in the lift with a yoledet? Because any extra person adds to the melachos done (this was in Rav Elyashiv's psak printed in the paper yesterday).

I was actually thinking of MH when I wrote the post and not SZ. In MH the chadar leidah is on the entrance floor, so no lift then. I was in the lift on Shabbos after I'd already given birth, when I was already in the hospital's care (to go up to yoldot). I forgot in SZ (and presumably other places too) the yoledet has to go in the lift before she's even registered in chadar leida when someone else needs to be with her. So I was thinking that the doula would be there in addition to a member of hospital staff and after she's given birth. I'm not sure a rav would say it's neccessary for the doula not to leave the yoledet (not alone) for the minute she's in the lift in those circumstances.

Ruchel

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 3:49 am

How dare he compromise one of the reasons people make alia LOL

More seriously, in many a charedi area if there is an elevator (which is not a given) there is a shabbes one or a shabbes mode...

I think it will be one of these decisions that reinforce people who already did that way, and that others will likely ignore

catonmylap

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 4:44 am

I don't think it's going to change anything around here.

I'm not about to start walking up 8 stories. It's pretty rough even when you aren't carrying a toddler and/or a stroller.

And I doubt our neighbors are about to change either(especially the ones on the 11th floor).

gryp

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 6:47 am

I don't understand why this is new thing either. I grew up knowing we don't take Shabbos elevators. Never had much practical relevance except for the Shabbosim my great-grandmother A"H would spend with us, and little 9 yr old me was trusted to walk her to (a closer) shul, daven there with her (different nussach), and walk with her back home. My father instructed me that my great-grandmother (who was in her 80's then) would be taking the Shabbos elevator, and I should run up the stairs and meet her there.

octopus

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 9:13 am

This is actually a very very complex halachic issue. It is also very interesting note, as technology becomes more sophisticated, in the case of the elevator, it becomes more problematic to use on shabbos. The new elevators have a weight censor. The old elevators did not. Old psaks for old elevators are okay. But with the new technology, psaks can change. as it has in this case.

sky

Wed, Sep 30 2009, 10:13 am

Inspired wrote:

Personally I would not agree to be left alone for even one minute when in labor. And I never plan on laboring with less than 2 doulas attending me.

I was just reading that a dh on succos does not have to leave his laboring wife to eat in the succah if she doesn't want him to, even the first night. And he can eat if he has to (Although I think he does have to go to the succah on the first night to eat a kazayis before the night is over). So halacha is definetly sensitive to the fact that a laboring women needs support.