Why would a yid WANT TO celebrate Thanksgiving?

ora_43

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 6:52 am

Ruchel wrote:

Ora, it may be a generation thing. There are still people like that, especially older, even in very Jewish places. They feel no danger but they hold religion is a private matter.
As for no kipa/kissui they may be the type of MO who doesn't wear, or "not used to wearing it out of shul, no one did that when I grew up".
I still know of people in their 40's who will find a way around the question when asked if they are Jewish, even in very Jewish places. It's "personal".

This is not my mentality, but I keep seeing it.

Trust me, it's wasn't just a cultural thing unconnected to feeling danger. Maybe that's what it is today, but at least according to the people I know, that's not how it started.

People in their 40s are a totally different generation with different circumstances. Not sure what the connection is to pre-1950s America.

Rodent

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 7:00 am

I'm still annoyed that I had to work until 5.30pm on the evening of Thanksgiving in a Jewish school when I lived in America. They may have decided not to celebrate it but we DID want to celebrate it while we lived there and thought that was unfair, it's a public holiday for a reason. My poor husband cooked the turkey etc for the record.

As for the insular thing.... What exactly is the point in being Jewish? I mean, it was always my understanding that one of the primary reasons was to be a light unto the nations and all that. I'd love to know how those who live insular lives having nothing to do with other nations actually achieve that mitzva. Sure we're different, sure we have a different mission, and that mission sure isn't to live in your own self-absorbed ignorant bubble.

ora_43

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 7:35 am

Rodent wrote:

As for the insular thing.... What exactly is the point in being Jewish? I mean, it was always my understanding that one of the primary reasons was to be a light unto the nations and all that. I'd love to know how those who live insular lives having nothing to do with other nations actually achieve that mitzva. Sure we're different, sure we have a different mission, and that mission sure isn't to live in your own self-absorbed ignorant bubble.

The original and ideal situation is that the entire Jewish people lives in the land of Israel. We can then be a real light to the nations, by creating a society based on Torah.

The mitzva isn't to live among the nations and be part of their lives, it's to follow Hashem's will, which if done properly means setting an example for the nations.

DrMom

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 7:56 am

ora_43 wrote:

Rodent wrote:

Someone who feels that way should make aliyah. If they still choose to live in chu"l, I don't see what the problem is celebrating national holidays which celebrate values which are not at odds with Yahadut.

TranquilityAndPeace

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 1:08 pm

zaq wrote:

T&P: Why in the world would anyone argue the opposite of what they do? Is not claiming to believe one thing and doing the opposite the essence of hypocrisy?

I don't think one "should" celebrate T-day; I think it's a nice thing to do. I don't feel strongly about it the way I might feel about, say, recycling, which I feel very strongly one **should** do. I would try to persuade people who don't recycle to do so; I would not try to talk people who don't celebrate T-day into doing so. I would, however, argue vociferously with people who state that one **shouldn't** celebrate T-day. There's a world of difference, after all, between not thinking one must and thinking one must not.

We're all over imamother saying that we want to lose weight and eating cookies, saying we want to be nicer to DH and yelling, saying that we want to have more patience for the kids and losing our patience, saying that we want to stop picking at our skin on Shabbos but doing so, saying that we want to get more organized and still being messy....

So it's not that far out to want to do something other than what we do!

I agree with you that celebrating Thanksgiving is not that big of a deal, (although I'm not certain that recycling is a bigger deal!) so personally, I would do whatever my family does.

And if my younger sister were to get engaged to a family who celebrated Thanksgiving tomorrow, and they invited my whole family - I'd go to my very first T-meal.

My point is that we are all defending our current positions.

Doesn't anyone here have a DH who wants to celebrate Thanksgiving in the opposite manner than the DW wants to do so? That person could be honest and say "I really believe that we should feel grateful to the US and celebrate T-day, but DH doesn't want to." Or on the contrary, "I sincerely believe that a Jew should not celebrate T-day but DH wants me to make a big turkey meal, so I am going to do so."

When we simply argue for thing way we do things, we are biased, because we are defending what we do as being right.

Which leads me to the fact that it really is incredibly difficult for a human being to argue objectively... much as we tend to delude ourselves into thinking that we are being objective.

I am actually tempted to email my rabbi about Jews celebrating on Thanksgiving, but he's traveling this week, and I don't need to bother him just so I sound knowledgeable on this site...

zaq

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 4:27 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Or saying that Jews were always welcome, when even in New York they faced anti-Semitism, let alone in the south and the midwest.

If people believe that Jews were always welcome in America with open arms, how will they understand the many Jews outside NYC who lied about being Jews pre-1950s or so? Or the fact that almost nobody went around with a kippah (or covered hair, for women)? Or American Jews' reluctance to demonstrate during the Holocaust?

You're confusing official national law and policy with human behavior. People are people anywhere you go, and there will always be haters trying to thwart Jews directly or through the legal system. However, unlike many other countries, the US seldom had official, legally sanctioned antiSemitism, though FDR's refusal to grant asylum to the passengers of the SS St. Louis in 1939 qualifies. There is no official State religion, even if the White House does have an Xmas tree on its lawn. There is no policy outlawing practice of Judaism, though there are periodic local campaigns on the part of certain groups to abolish Jewish practices suchh as shechitah and milah. There is no law on the books stating that Jews, Sikhs, and Druids may not run for public office, hold passports, or teach in public schools. There has never been a national law forbidding Jews from living anywhere---though there have been and still are groups that refuse to sell property to Jews, grant permits to build Jewish institutional buildings and the like.

For much of its history, the US government did welcome immigrants with somewhat open arms--the modifier being applied because of the imposition of quotas on certain groups.

No country will ever be entirely free of antiSemitism because antiSemites are everywhere. You can't legislate attitudes; you can legislate only actions, and then only certain ones. At least the US goes on record as supporting tolerance, despite periodic breaches such as the internment of people of Japanese descent after Pearl Harbor, and has made efforts to rectify abuses of the past.

zaq

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 4:51 pm

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

disingenuous argument. comparing apples and power drills. celebrating T-day is not a matter of moral character, middos, personality, willpower or self-control. It's not a "more than or less than" issue. It's on-off, yes-no. Nobody has an insatiable taavah to celebrate the holiday, even if they have an inastiable taavah for turkey. Nobody finds themselves battling the yetzer hara to make a dinner party. Oh, maybe a person who is opposed on religious grounds finds himself wavering when invited to T-day dinner at the home of the best cook in the county, but beyond that? Please.

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

My point is that we are all defending our current positions.

And this perplexes or offends you because....?

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

Doesn't anyone here have a DH who wants to celebrate Thanksgiving in the opposite manner than the DW wants to do so? That person could be honest and say "I really believe that we should feel grateful to the US and celebrate T-day, but DH doesn't want to." Or on the contrary, "I sincerely believe that a Jew should not celebrate T-day but DH wants me to make a big turkey meal, so I am going to do so."

Maybe all the amothers who are interested in this thread are in fact on the same page as their dhs on this issue. For many people, this is ahrdly the burning issue you seem to think it is. I venture to guess that a very large percentage of American Jews really don't care too much one way or another.

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

When we simply argue for thing way we do things, we are biased, because we are defending what we do as being right.

well, duuuuhhh....
That doesn't mean we don't honestly believe that what we're doing is right. I don't see why you're trying to prove that we're all a bunch of hypocrites trying to justify what we do or don't do despite knowing that it's wrong. Celebrating T-day is neither a mitzvas asseh nor a US legal obligation on the part of any individual. there is thus no reason for anyone who doesn't celebrate to have to justify her decision. And in fact there were a number of posters who said point blank they don't because it's too much bother, or bad timing, or they hate cooking or whatever, as well as others who implied if they didn't say outright that they celebrate because they like turkey and can get their families together without hassle. And why not?

I haven't heard anyone here say they go to ecumenical Thanksgiving services at the First Episcopal Church.

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

Which leads me to the fact that it really is incredibly difficult for a human being to argue objectively... much as we tend to delude ourselves into thinking that we are being objective.

a nice philosphical point, but what does that have to do with the validity or lack thereof of celebrating T-day?

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

I am actually tempted to email my rabbi about Jews celebrating on Thanksgiving, but he's traveling this week, and I don't need to bother him just so I sound knowledgeable on this site...

ooooh, I'm scayured! You got me shivering in my shoes.

As has also been posted: some rabbanim pasken that it's absolutely forbidden, while others pasken that there's nothing wrong with it. If you're on the fence about it and want guidance, either because you want to celebrate and aren't sure it's permissible, or because you feel it's forbidden and want to be able to hock those who do celebrate, fronted by the shield of your rav's psak--which, may I remind you, applies only to you and your community, not across the board for all of American Jewry--then go ahead. But quit hocking the rest of us, willya?

fmt4

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 9:49 pm

TranquilityAndPeace wrote:

amother wrote:

I would go so far as to say that as Jews, we especially should celebrate Thanksgiving! It is the day set aside for Hakaras Hatov of this country, one of the few countries that has never persecuted it's Jews.

Yet.

There have been many other countries that have never persecuted its Jews... until the day that they did.

However, essentially I am a Jew, and that will never change. If God-forbid this government one day turns on its Jewish citizens, or it's Jewish citizens' sisters and brothers who are being persecuted in other countries and want to immigrate here (think FDR and World War 2), then I will not be one of those scratching my head wondering, "How on earth could this have happened? All those non-Jewish American neighbors of mine were so nice to me, we were friends, we used to share turkey recipes together before Thanksgiving, how could they do this to us????" (circa Germany, 1938).

History always repeats itself.

.

This is ridiculous. Don't compare Germany with America. Every country in Europe has been covered in Jewish blood for centuries. Just because the Jews in Germany had short memories doesn't mean that Germany was a Jew-loving country for all the centuries before the Holocaust. America is a country that is unique and different from any other country in that it was built on the idea of freedom and equality. Not a single other country can lay claim to that. So yes, I will eat my turkey and thank G-d that I am here.

fmt4

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 9:57 pm

zaq wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

This.

Of course there will be people and institutions that will be anti-semitic. That is completely different from a country advocating policies that are specifically anti-jews, or anti-anyone for that matter. America has never done that, and I don't believe they ever will. As I said, the foundation of a country is so important. And America's foundation, though not perfect, is not built on thousands of years of religious persecution and bloodshed, against Jews or between Christians themselves.

marina

Tue, Nov 22 2011, 11:19 pm

We celebrate Thanksgiving because we are thankful to God for the many good things in our lives.

If you, OP, think that a real yid shouldn't celebrate or whatever, then I'm very proud not be a real yid.

And also I find this entire thread and its title to be incredibly offensive. I read the title and was reminded of why I am no longer part of the frum world.

Quote:

The original and ideal situation is that the entire Jewish people lives in the land of Israel. We can then be a real light to the nations, by creating a society based on Torah.

And Ora, the other nations don't care if all the Jews go live in Israel. No one is going to travel there and take notes on how the Jews live their ideal lives.

Ugh. I can't believe I got sucked into the Thanksgiving debate yet another year.

Rodent

Wed, Nov 23 2011, 12:56 am

ora_43 wrote:

Rodent wrote:

Since when was Israel ONLY Jews exactly?
There are 2 situations here:
a) Living in a primarily Jewish community and dealing with pockets of people, or surrounding communities that are not Jewish
and
b) Living in a community that is entirely Jewish, either ignoring any non-Jews that happen to exist (not doing business with them or conversing with them etc), or treating them like lower peoples, and being ignorant (and embarassingly often quite frankly racist in my unfortunate experience in such communities). Living in a bubble and shutting the world out.

I have no problem with (a) but wouldn't exactly call that insular. I have an issue with (b). I do not think a society based on Torah that has nothing to do with the outside world is the ideal at all, sorry. I hold by my statement that people that live life like that are a light unto themselves and noone else.