Support group for women who work in very full time jobs?

SomebodyElse

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 5:16 pm

This has been said before, but I want to emphasize the point that the reason the WOOHMs (work out of the home mothers) feel the need for a closed forum is because working outside of the home (other than a few select professions) is often viewed as both unusual and inappropriate for a frum woman, and is therefore more likely to incur bashing and the like.

Meanwhile, many of the WAHMs want it recognized that they work just as hard and have many of the same problems as the WOOHMs. But the very fact that people assume WAHMs have it easy is precisely the reason why the WAHMs don't get judged harshly for their career choice/situation and therefore don't need the same protection from bashing. (Am I wrong -- do WAHMs get bashed too?)

I don't see why WAHMs can't have a closed forum of their own, if that's their objection. I think it's also already been agreed that the WOOHM forum (or whatever it's going to be called) would be flexible on admission, for those who don't exactly fit the criteria but feel they would benefit from the discussion.

I think main challenge is coming up with a name and description for the forum that's as inclusive as possible, but still serves the purpose.

creativemommyto3

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 5:22 pm

SomebodyElse wrote:

This has been said before, but I want to emphasize the point that the reason the WOOHMs (work out of the home mothers) feel the need for a closed forum is because working outside of the home (other than a few select professions) is often viewed as both unusual and inappropriate for a frum woman, and is therefore more likely to incur bashing and the like.

Meanwhile, many of the WAHMs want it recognized that they work just as hard and have many of the same problems as the WOOHMs. But the very fact that people assume WAHMs have it easy is precisely the reason why the WAHMs don't get judged harshly for their career choice/situation and therefore don't need the same protection from bashing. (Am I wrong -- do WAHMs get bashed too?)-

I don't see why WAHMs can't have a closed forum of their own, if that's their objection. I think it's also already been agreed that the WOOHM forum (or whatever it's going to be called) would be flexible on admission, for those who don't exactly fit the criteria but feel they would benefit from the discussion.

I think main challenge is coming up with a name and description for the forum that's as inclusive as possible, but still serves the purpose.

ANY working mom gets bashed and is made to feel guilty for not spending enough time with our kids. etc etc..
I think that if people on this forum would chose to be mature adults then this wouldn't happen b/c even in a closed forum there might be professionals who do have all the criteria but might have a different attitude.. Some women might do it b/c they feel that this will help them be a proper mother , while others might not think about it this way.
Like I heard about the head of the TTI program. Let me tell you that she has a HUGE family but this woman shuts the phone and doesn't work between 2 and 7.. She reads to her kids. She works but as a means to take care of her family AND she gets a geshmak out of helping frum women get careers..

cassandra

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 5:26 pm

Barbara wrote:

cassandra wrote:

I'm beginning to think that the people pushing for the closed group for a small subset of people really do enjoy their differentness. If you really wanted people to understand you then you would remain open, but you instead choose to focus on the occasional small-mindedness. I wonder why.

Why does it bother you so much? You've chosen NOT to work. Kol hakavod. But if people who have chosen TO work feel that they would be more comfortable in a closed environment, why should it bother you?

for the same reason genocide in Africa bothers me. Something can bother you even if it has nothing to do with you.

And this actually has a little to do with me because the implication that those of us who don't work are small minded and intolerant and there must be a club for these special women the rest of us can't understand is getting a little offensive.

tovasmom

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 5:27 pm

I have been following this and the other thread back and forth. Initially I thought the closed forum was a good idea, but I'm gravitating to the safe haven idea which was floated. Having been on both sides of this discussion -- I have done the crazy schedule and decided to work almost part time (for law that means 40 or so hours -- in any other profession it would be full time) at great financial hardship because of quality of life issues, I still get bashed based on what I do for a living. At this stage of life, though, I suck it up and ignore it because within our community (flatbush, yeshivish) its just a part of life. The safe haven designation should eliminate most of the bashing and let the entire working women community of imamother to benefit from ideas and advice from all avenues. And even though I did work 60-80 hours a week regularly for about 7 years, hopefully those of you who still do respect me for deciding not to anymore.

ss321

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 5:45 pm

cassandra wrote:

And this actually has a little to do with me because the implication that those of us who don't work are small minded and intolerant and there must be a club for these special women the rest of us can't understand is getting a little offensive.

but cassandra, this is not supposed to be an "us vs them" thing. no one is doubting your intelligence or intellectual abilities .nor is anyone bashing your choice to stay home and devote yourself to being a full time SAHM. within the world you live, you have made it clear that doing so is not the "norm," and kudos to you for doing what you feel/felt is best for your family.
however, lets call a spade a spade here, and make it clear that you are not "average" on this site. while you may be able to be accepting of all three "drachim" if you will - SAHM, WAHM, and WOHM, and all the variants (former WOHM now SAHM, SAHM who works 4hrs/wk, WOHM who commutes 1x/wk, WOHM who wishes she was a SAHM, SAHM who wishes she was a WOHM, whatever), that certainly is not the norm on here, unfortunately. no, SAHMs and WAHMs dont get nearly as much bashing as WOHMs on here. that is I guess due in part to the mentality within the frum (?yehshivish? ?chassidish? I dont even know who) world that a womans place, under most if not all circumstances, is "in the home," and anything other than that is bdi eved. go look at a WOHM vs WAHM or SAHM vs working mom debate on urban baby, and it is much more split down the middle. not the case here. I think that is the reason many f/t working professionals on here feel attacked or whatever word you want to use. it is not YOU, and once again, I dont think anyone doubts you are an educated, intelligent woman who has made a decision to make raising your kids "your CAREER" and I for one have a world of respect for you. you are worldly, knowledgeable in halacha, and sharp as a wit. but you are not the "norm" on this site (nor is fox)

creativemommyto3

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 5:49 pm

ss321 wrote:

cassandra wrote:

How do you come to such a measuring stick? ALL working moms get slack for not spending enough time with their kids etc etc.. Granted MD's and lawyers are a bit more away from the kids but as far as I see it's just a matter of time.
Even if you like being a career woman, you could still think that your main role is your family.. when you retire.. THEY are all you will have..

creativemommyto3

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 5:52 pm

ss321 wrote:

cassandra wrote:

Also, you have to be working in order to be in these forums... You should be having a forum for those in medical school while being a wife and mother.. technically you don't even belong either..

ora_43

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 5:59 pm

I don't get the debate here.

If the forum is created and gets a lot of use, then it means it was necessary, whether or not those outside the forum understand why.

If the forum is created and turns into yet another private forum that gets a new post once every 2-4 months, so it wasn't necessary, but it doesn't matter because in any case the "working women" forum is being used as the sole forum for work-related issues.

And those of us who work from home, or don't work insane hours, or aren't professionals, or don't work due to job satisfaction, etc, still have a forum in either case, so we win either way.

So IMO - make the forum, see what happens.

cassandra

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 5:59 pm

ss321 wrote:

cassandra wrote:

This isn't about me personally. I think you need to give people more credit, and if you try to help them understand you then the reasonable people will. They might still disagree with you but feel less inclined to attack. Most people who aren't thoughtful about things won't post anything, and if it's someone not so thoughtful or shallow or unable to understand I'd think it would be pretty easy to ignore them. Why would you care what someone dumb thinks of you? It's exactly like on the NP forum-- I don't agree with a lot of the militancy of NP parents, yet any time someone posts something derogatory on the NP board I roll my eyes-- because I can understand where they are coming from and that they need their space, and I think most people give that to them, and the handful who don't are edited out.

I was also thinking-- how are all of you busy women going to keep such a board alive? In order to have an active forum you need people who post regularly, which I imagine is hard to do if you're working so much. At least if you keep it open you might get ideas from people who aren't exactly like you but still might be able to give input.

Barbara

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 6:00 pm

cassandra wrote:

Barbara wrote:

cassandra wrote:

Funny, but the only person in this debate whom I've seen using the words *special* *small minded* and *intolerant* is you -- as your way of bashing women who would choose to participate in a closed forum. Your use of the term *special* in this context is particularly offensive.

There are women who simply are more comfortable discussing issues relating to their particular life circumstance -- working long hours outside the home -- in a closed forum. Just like there are women who would prefer to discuss infertility in a closed forum, dicuss abuse in a closed forum, or discuss any number of other things in closed forum. This isn't genocide -- but I do wonder if your rather absurd reference is close enough for me to invoke Godwin's Rule.

ss321

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 6:01 pm

creativemommyto3, I do believe my primary role in life is to be a good mother. yes, when you die, no one is going to say (unless you discover the cure for cancer or something), oh, she was such an amazing doctor.....but an amazing mother- that is my measuring stick. but I have believed, and still do believe, it is quality not quantity. being a SAHM did not afford me mroe of a chance to be a "better mom"- I did it for a year. it just gave me more time to be home, sleep, relax, clean, do some organizing I never had a chance to do, buy furniture for our house, and yes, spend MORE time with my kids. but was that time QUALITY? I cant really say. either way, this is not supposed to be about a debate. for me, being a WOHM is best. for somoene else, being a SAHM is best. and its a free world, so both can totally co-exist.

a bunch of us wanted a "students" forum a while back, but it didnt work out. I think other full time students would be interested in joining, I dont think I am the only one. I know there are a couple law students on here, and there used to be 1 or 2 more medical students although IDK if they are around anymore.

cassandra

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 6:04 pm

Barbara wrote:

Why does it bother you that it bothers me? Who am I bashing? I'm just saying it's unnecessary which I've been saying all along, but after a while you get the impression that people who are lamenting that no one understands them don't really want to be understood. And because the work/life balance, for most women is a fluid thing throughout their lives it makes more sense to keep it open so all can benefit, unlike abuse or infertility which MOST women will probably not experience at any point.

And Godwin's is out since I didn't compare anything here to genocide. I simply said that it's possible to care about things that don't directly relate to you. Maybe I should have chosen bird watching or the British Royal Family.

creativemommyto3

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 6:06 pm

ss321 wrote:

I believe exactly as you.. just I am no med student. My aunt who is a doctor and I have so much in common as working mothers . We don't sit and say one works more than the other.. Well maybe I do when I try to send her home with one of my kugels from the freezer.. But the key is that we help each other..

And honestly, I would love to be a wohm because sometimes I go nutty from being in the house all day ! that way my dh will remember more shtarkly that I am not just the housewife except for when my check comes in.......

ora_43

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 6:07 pm

Barbara wrote:

There are women who simply are more comfortable discussing issues relating to their particular life circumstance -- working long hours outside the home -- in a closed forum. Just like there are women who would prefer to discuss infertility in a closed forum, dicuss abuse in a closed forum, or discuss any number of other things in closed forum. This isn't genocide -- but I do wonder if your rather absurd reference is close enough for me to invoke Godwin's Rule.

The difference being that everybody is so grateful not to qualify for the abuse or infertility forums that there's not much risk of resentment.

I think this proposed forum is different in that it's something a lot of people would love to have. Not necessarily the insane hours, but to have a high-powered, high-paying profession instead of just a normal stressful job, or to have the opportunity to go to med school or law school, or the choice of making a decent income... etc. It's one thing to be told "you don't qualify for infertility because you have X number of kids" -- good, I'm grateful for those kids! but to be told "you don't qualify for the professionals forum because you only work 30 hours a week," if someone is currently underemployed -- that hurts.

To a certain extent, I think from an outside perspective it could look more like an exclusive "elite professionals" forum than a support group, especially given the originally proposed criteria ("professionals" only, people who work because they want to, etc). I'm sure that's not what the people proposing it are thinking, because they have a different perspective, but I can see how maybe that's what's causing some of the opposition to the idea.

ss321

Mon, Aug 10 2009, 6:33 pm

but ora, where did anyone mention you must be a "professional" to join our secret special club?
case in point (IMO) is chocolate moose, who is by her own declaration not a professional, but still works full time and likes her job and the idea of working outside the home.
my point is htere is no club and there is no entry criteria. how could there be? is a CPA not a professoinal because they did not go to grad school? is bill gates not a professional because he did not graduate college? if you want to belong and you feel like you have something to add or something to gain, by all means, join. I think we just want somewhere to vent where we will feel protected and will not be bashed.

I understand the comparison to the infertility etc forums is not a fair one, but what about the "yeshivish," "chassidish," and "modern orthodox" forums? or the new "frummer than before" forum? those are all private.
ok fine. those are all - if you belong to a certain hashkafah or mindset.
what about the "life in israel" forum? no one is saying we are members of an exclusive israeli forum, we think we are better than americans, british, and australian women because we live in tel aviv/yerushalayim/bnei brak/ wherever, I think there are issues unique to their lifestyle there, and they want to discuss them without tangential discussions, questions, or bashing.