Parnassah comes from hashem.

Leriem

Sun, Jul 29 2018, 3:14 pm

amother wrote:

Hashem wants people to go to medical school to assist him in healing his people.

(this was a really poor example).

Hashem doesn’t need assistance. It’s all a matter of perspective. Some people can’t do med school, or training for other high paying careers, so does that mean he’s doomed to be poor? Absolutely not.

Leriem

Sun, Jul 29 2018, 3:15 pm

essie14 wrote:

Working overtime IS hishtadlut. No, I don’t believe that if you continue to work your regular hours that hashem will magically send you enough money to make a bar mitzvah.
You need to provide the cup for hashem to fill. Working overtime or taking a second job or whatever is providing that cup.

So I’d suggest you buy some emunah books which discuss this. Your belief is not accurate because Hashem does not work strictly through natural means. You are looking at it from a perspective of what is natural and makes sense.

Leriem

Sun, Jul 29 2018, 3:17 pm

amother wrote:

So there anything special or out of the realm of normal Tevah when it comes to parnassah, or do things go b'derech hatevah? Is hashem giving those with advanced degrees more money because they went to college, or would hashem have provided them with the same income had they taken a job in the grocery store?

The latter, He will just get them the money in a different way. Seforim on emunah discuss it. Did you ever learn that on Rosh Hashana Hashem decides how much each person will get that year? Do you think it only pertains to professionals or people who earn a lot?

amother

Babyblue

Sun, Jul 29 2018, 3:19 pm

Leriem wrote:

That’s incorrect. I’ve read. A lot of books on emunah, and it specifically said Hashem has many ways to give a person money, and if he’s meant to get a lot, even if he’s working at a low paying job, he will get it some other way. A person only needs to do reasonable hishtadulus, if he doesn’t have the ability, money or ambition to go through med school, yet Hashem wants him to make a million dollars that year, he can still get the money even while working as a rebbe. Even buying a lottery ticket is hishtadlus!

I think you're mixing up emunah with being in a cult. It's silly to say that hashem doesn't give parnassah mostly thru order and hishtadlus. I'm not looking to be controversial, but if you look at certain communities where lots of people don't work, you will see the poverty rate is near the highest in the entire country. Hashem is not saying sit back and money will fall like the manna did when the yidden left mitzrayim. In-spite of what you've read, there is a link between working hard and having money. Why do you think most people on low paying jobs are getting big tuition discounts and are on all kinds of programs? Why doesn't hashem just send them the money some how? Please use common sense. Please believe your eyes and not what you read in a book.

Leriem

Sun, Jul 29 2018, 3:19 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

You need to hishtadlus. Hishtadlus means not doing something you hate, running yourself drag, and putting in extra hours for extra money. There is a difference between choosing something known to make more than minimum than putting extra hours on yourself to get extra money.

When I asked, how do you know how much hishtadlus to do, I was told, a reasonable amount, AND THAT IS IT! Nothing more will get you an extra penny that is not coming to you. It’s hard for us o understand as human beings who think in a logical way, but what Hashem does is not always logical to us.

amother

Aquamarine

Sun, Jul 29 2018, 7:37 pm

Leriem wrote:

How do you know what's reasonable?

amother

Babyblue

Sun, Jul 29 2018, 9:08 pm

Leriem wrote:

If this were true, that any person can get any job and have the same chance of financial success. We would see it. We would see that somehow someway rebbeim and teachers seem to make money like doctors and lawyers. Why is hashem hidden in all aspects of the world but in parnassah he makes open miracles? I understand you were told this but don't you see that it contradicts the facts that you see?

amother

Jetblack

Sun, Jul 29 2018, 10:35 pm

Leriem wrote:

What? We are Hashem's army.

Many people can't go to medical school - and most people who go to medical school aren't going to become rich.

People should live fulfilling G-d fearing lives.

amother

Babyblue

Sun, Jul 29 2018, 10:43 pm

amother wrote:

Please learn Chovos HaLevavos Shaar Habitachon.

Hashem is a Kol Yachol. Overtime will not pay for your bar mitzvah. Medical school will not pay for your bar mitzvah. Only HKBH so pay for your bar mitzvah.

The surest way to make more money? Chazal say clearly is to give more tzedaka.

We agree HKBH controls everything. For example he controls the weather. On any day hashem can make it 100 degrees or a 3 foot blizzard. Since hashem runs the world b'tevah he never sends blizzards in July or 100 degree heat in January. (In NYC) He certainly could, but he doesn't. He makes things look natural and normal. Why is it hard to accept that he does the same with parnassa? Certain jobs are inherently higher paying then others. That's why it's a sacrafice to go into kli kodesh. It's assumed the family is giving up financial well being and the materialism that goes with it for a life of Torah. According to what you're saying rebbaim get no such credit. There is no financial sacrifice as hashem sends money to us without any consideration to the persons job or profession. When a family chooses a life of kli kodesh there is actually no sacrifice at all.

The problem with what chazzal say is that there is no way to apply it. I'm not c'vs saying it's not true. I'm saying that we have no way of understanding on a practical level the idea that if you give tzedaka, you will make money and be rich. Should we suggest to the local rabbanim in various poor communities that instead of having campaigns and going around collecting for hundreds of desperately poor families, they merely suggest to these families to give tzedaka? After all chazal clearly say that the surest way to make money is by giving tzedaka. How about that idea?

amother

Jetblack

Sun, Jul 29 2018, 10:44 pm

amother wrote:

Doctors and Lawyers and Rebbeim and teachers are all doing working in the natural world, doing their tafkid.

Yes - usually doctors and lawyers earn more than rebbeim and teachers - or they don't. No one is guaranteed anything.

amother

Jetblack

Sun, Jul 29 2018, 11:06 pm

amother wrote:

Ok, different example. Don't work overtime so that you can save up money to pay for an upcoming bar mitzvah. Continue to do regular hishtadlus and hashem will give you exactly what you are supposed to get.

So don't work overtime and sit at home and 'veg' - or don't work overtime and go learn, or be present for your children..

amother

Babyblue

Sun, Jul 29 2018, 11:09 pm

amother wrote:

Of course nobody is guaranteed anything. But if hashem ran the world in a way that once a person does their regular hishtadlus, hashem will give them exactly what they are supposed to get regardless of any extra efforts (working overtime, becoming doctor) we would see clearly that rebbeim, teachers, doctors and lawyers would all make the same. We would actually see it. In the same way if I'd ask you which gender is more common male or female, it is virtually equal, we'd notice the same with parnassah. Regardless of a persons profession their parnassah is random and career choice has no affect on wealth. This is simply not true. Hashem runs the world in a way where career choice does have an affect on wealth. That's why the meshulachim come to neighborhoods with doctors, lawyers, and accountants and not Lakewood and knock on doors of the rebbeim.

Mommyg8

Sun, Jul 29 2018, 11:16 pm

amother wrote:

I don't think that's a fair comparison because Rabbeim are working -- it's OUR fault that they are not making enough money. But even so, I have definitely seen that some Rebbeim do seem to be doing well financially. Perhaps it's a yerusha, perhaps their wife has a good job, perhaps it's that they are thrifty and their expenses are low. And not all doctors are multimillionares either - so we do see that Hashem runs the world.

I think a better comparison is between someone who works hard and someone who does nothing all day -- you know, Rabbi Avigdor Miller tzl was the acknowledged expert on Chovos Halvovos Shaar Habitochon. He used to say - if you have a shop and you put up a sign "will be back in ten minutes" and the sign is always up (I.e. he's hardly ever there) then Hashem won't send you parnasah. Because we have to do a normal amount of hishtadlus, and Hashem is not doing open miracles nowadays. Like many have said, there has to be a vessel for the parnasah to enter.

The other side of the coin is if someone is working too hard and making himself/herself sick this is also not a valid form of hishtadlus. This whole topic is very tricky, and people tend to err on the side of doing too little rather than too much (IMHO) which is why it's good to have a Rebbe or Rav that you discuss the specifics of your situation.

Again, I have heard that parnasah is like crossing krias yam suf- first you have to jump in up to your neck and then Hashem sends you parnasah.

amother

Jetblack

Sun, Jul 29 2018, 11:25 pm

amother wrote:

You know becoming a doctor is the regular histadlus of the person who goes to medical school. What is it you have against doctors?

I actually don't understand the rest of your post.

When I personally work overtime - its because its expected of me.

We make interventions in life. We Daven - and we Do.

amother

Cerise

Sun, Jul 29 2018, 11:28 pm

keym wrote:

I think there's another piece- needs vs wants. So say for your son's bar mitzva, if we do enough hishtadlus, Hashem will provide for the bar mitzva. But that means a basic tefillin ($300), 1 hat and suit, a few trays of brownies and a case of seltzer.
Now if you want more expensive tefillin, more clothing, more at the kiddush, a sit down meal, yeah you are going to have to do "too much" hishtadlus to afford those.

Ot but pls tell me where I can get basic tefillin for 300? The cheapest I found was900.

Leriem

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 12:28 am

amother wrote:

No it does not contradict the facts I see. A Rebbe just bought a house across the street from me for $75,000 and is practically gutting it and renovating...where’d he get the money from??? And my cousin who is a doctor is barely making a living because of high malpractice insurance and other factors. That’s just one example, I can give you money. Do you not believe the concept that Hashem decides on Rosh Hashana how much each person will get? If it’s so “logical” as you believe that doctors will make a lot and Rebbeim will make less, why does Hashem decide every year? He has many ways to give someone at a low paying job money (lottery, inheritance, etc.) While we believe the world always works according to nature, it really doesn’t.

Leriem

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 12:32 am

amother wrote:

Nope you’re wrong. I’d urge you to read some books on Emunah.