Deleted | Imamother

Purplehair

Wed, Feb 13 2008, 10:53 am

trafficgal wrote:

purple you beat me to it I was going to say it could be spelled TZ though it seems like its popular in Europe to spell it Z

but with a T you could use Tammy? personally I like Zoe!

I happen to like Zoe too.
What's wrong with Tammy?
Other names with T: Tiffany, Tina,

Ruchel

Wed, Feb 13 2008, 10:54 am

Tammy, people could think it's Tamar, or modern Hebrew name Tammy... and Tina (although few know it) is short for Xtina.

Purplehair

Wed, Feb 13 2008, 10:57 am

Ruchel wrote:

Tammy, people could think it's Tamar, or modern Hebrew name Tammy... and Tina (although few know it) is short for Xtina.

Is it a problem if the Tammy is "Tamar" or "Tammy"?
I didn't know that Tina was a shortened form of Xtina. Thanks for the info!
BTW, that website you posted the link to is fantastic!

Ruchel

Wed, Feb 13 2008, 11:04 am

it's no problem, unless people think her Jewish name is Tamar Zippora and you have to correct all the time.
Yeah, the site is the best!

amother

Lavender

Wed, Feb 13 2008, 11:11 am

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Ruchel

Wed, Feb 13 2008, 11:19 am

most names are saints... even sarah, abraham...
In France Cecilia or Ava don't have Xtian connotations. Maybe in Austria?
I've always wondered about Tzina... I dunno...

Besiyata Dishmaya

Wed, Feb 13 2008, 11:24 am

Alexandra Chava wrote:

In my husband's family there is the minhag of giving two first names to a newborn: a "civil" name and a jewish/hebrew name

Now we've finally agreed on the Hebrew name Zipporah for our baby I'm expecting in May, naming her after the grandmother of my husband's beloved grandfather.

Your husband surely wouldn't give her a civil name in front of the Torah when naming her. So the civil name is not really a "minhag", it's more for legal records. Is it illegal in Austria to have Hebrew names? Will you be calling her by Hebrew or English name in general?

BTW, what was your husband's gggrandmother's name on record?

Purplehair

Wed, Feb 13 2008, 11:27 am

Ruchel wrote:

it's no problem, unless people think her Jewish name is Tamar Zippora and you have to correct all the time.
Yeah, the site is the best!

I see what you mean.
A cousin of mine has two "Hebrew" names (the ones that, if he were frum, he would be called up to the Torah with).
Then he has two "birth certificate" names, that just happen to be anglicized Hebrew names as well.
The names don't match at all. (IOW..his Hebrew name is "Mordechai Eliyahu", and the name on his birth certificate is "Joshua David")

Ruchel

Wed, Feb 13 2008, 11:29 am

Purplehair wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

it's no problem, unless people think her Jewish name is Tamar Zippora and you have to correct all the time.
Yeah, the site is the best!

yeah, that's what I mean. It's confusing!

Ruchel

Wed, Feb 13 2008, 11:31 am

MeThinks wrote:

Alexandra Chava wrote:

Your husband surely wouldn't give her a civil name in front of the Torah when naming her.

some say both names. Some only give a civil name at the Torah, or at least the minhag existed.

Quote:

This custom existed for some 900 years in Germany and has been discussed by many scholars. It took place on the first Shabbat when the mother went to the synagogue, which was on the fourth Shabbat or on the thirteeth day after the birth. It took place after Shabbat lunch. Boys recited the Hollekreisch for boys and girls for girls. The newborn children were dressed up; baby boys were dressed in a tallit and the book of Vayikra (Leviticus) was placed in the crib.

Before the naming, a series of verses were recited from the Pentateuch.

Then, they would lift up the crib and shout in German:

Hollekreisch ! How shall the baby be called? Ploni Ploni Ploni (I.e. his or her name three times).

This is repeated three times and then nuts, sweets and fruits were given to the boys and girls.

Originally, this was the German custom for both boys and girls. In time, they stopped performing the ceremony for boys, since they were named in any case at the brit , and they observed it only for girls. Rabbi Ya'akov Emden (d. 1776) says there was not a fixed custom to recite the verses for girls. Girls received a Hebrew name or a secular name at the Hollekreisch .

amother

Lavender

Wed, Feb 13 2008, 11:39 am

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Ruchel

Wed, Feb 13 2008, 11:41 am

Cypre (tsipre) is Yiddish for Zippora Smile

Ruchel

Wed, Feb 13 2008, 11:41 am

and yeah, the spelling looks Polish

Besiyata Dishmaya

Wed, Feb 13 2008, 11:42 am

Ruchel wrote:

Originally, this was the German custom for both boys and girls. In time, they stopped performing the ceremony for boys, since they were named in any case at the brit , and they observed it only for girls. Rabbi Ya'akov Emden (d. 1776) says there was not a fixed custom to recite the verses for girls. Girls received a Hebrew name or a secular name at the Hollekreisch .

Where did you pick this up? Rabbi Yaakov Emden did chas vesholom not mean "secular" names like Erika or Mary to have been given at the Torah. Rather, he meant non-Hebrew Jewish names, like Feige or Zelda.

Ruchel

Wed, Feb 13 2008, 11:44 am

Feiga and Zelda used to be just like any other secular name. They just got integrated as "Jewish" much later. They seem Jewish to us, but to Germans in the Middle Ages? hardly.

What's wrong with Mary, the mother of the chief rabbi of France? it's the common name for a Miriam, just so you know.

Purplehair

Wed, Feb 13 2008, 11:46 am

Going back to "Z" names, I just came across the name "Zabrina". Its a variant of the name Sabrina, and it means "Princess".

Here's the link:
http://www.babychatter.com/zgirl.html

Besiyata Dishmaya

Wed, Feb 13 2008, 11:47 am

Alexandra Chava wrote:

Unfortunately there are no records left of DH's gggrandmother - we just have a family tree with the entry "Cypre Zipora Vorschirm", but it's not clear how reliable "Cypre" is ... Perhaps it was some Polish form for Zipporah?
Seriously, I think Zippy will be the calling name.

I heard of people with the name Tzippa (Cipa) and also Tzippra (Cipra). But Tzippy is an adorable name.

amother

Lavender

Wed, Feb 13 2008, 11:48 am

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Besiyata Dishmaya

Wed, Feb 13 2008, 11:53 am

Ruchel wrote:

Jews spoke Yiddish and giving Yiddish names was just as fine as Hebrew names according to the Rabbanim throughout the generations. But non-Jewish names, were never accepted. Shelo shinu es shemom!

Who is the Chief Rabbi of France? His mother might be called Mary, but she DEFINITELY was not named Mary at the Torah when she was born.

Ruchel

Wed, Feb 13 2008, 11:56 am

Quote:

The above definitions dealt mainly with the names of men, who were always given a Hebrew name at birth, plus Yiddish and other vernacular names. Since women were not called to the Tora in an Aliya, they did not need a Hebrew name and many women were never given a Hebrew name, but only a Yiddish and/or secular name.

Quote:

Girls received a Hebrew name or a secular name at the Hollekreisch .

There are at least six different explanations for the word Hollekreisch . For example, some suggest that it comes from the French "haut la crï¿½che", to raise the crib. This is not convincing because the word is always quoted by German rabbis, not French. Others said that Hollekreisch means a "holy cry". This interpretation is not correct, because the ceremony included giving a secular name or just a secular name.

Quote:

As previously pointed out, during the High Middle Ages (1000-1492), the use of German, Christian, and Western European secular names became so widespread that the rabbis decreed in the 12th century that every Jewish boy must be given a purely Jewish (Hebrew) name at his circumcision. Thus, it became customary to give two names: Shem HaKodesh, the sacred name for being called to the Tora and for religious documents, and a Kinui, a non-sacred name for family, civil, and business purposes. This rabbinic statute has validity today.

Ashkenazi Jews (German, Alsatian, Austrian, Polish, Russian), many of whom had only secular names, developed the following paths to associate Hebrew names with their secular names, in order to satisfy the rabbinic decree:

Quote:

The given names adopted by Jews during this turbulent period reflected the mixture of regions in which they lived and from which they fled. Some German names adopted by Jews during the High Middle Ages: Achselrod, Ansel, Bere, Eberlein, Edel, Falk, Feischl, Gottleib, Gumprecht, Hirz, Lebe, Mendel, Schmolke, Susskind, Susmann, Vives, Wolf; Gnena, Golde, Guta, Liebel, Maita, Minna, Perla, Rechel, Reine.

Some other European names adopted (from Spain, France, Italy, Bohemia, etc.): Bendit, Benes, Benet, Bertrand, Bonami, Faywel, Fissel, Herkules, Issac, Janus, Josef, Kalonymus, Kopel, Martin, Motell, Phobus, Vital, Vivanti; Bela, Blanca, Bruna, Czierna, Dobrisch, Dolza, Drazna, Estella, Flora, Genonna, Jenny, Muriel, Prive, Regina, Selda, Slava, Sprinza, Zlatka.

http://www.jewishgen.org/datab.....u.htm