Yishuvim with acceptance committees

Imaonwheels

Thu, Feb 05 2009, 3:41 am

The dati leumi vaadot are much worse than the charedi. And they are much more wicked than the charedi when they want you out. I have a friend who quit as a social worker for the Moatzet Shomron because she said that she was not hired to help people but to harass people the yishuv she was assigned to wanted out.

Chauncy, I have been around yishuvim for 20 years. What you said is just not true. Yishuvim were once homogenic. They were meant to be the Torah and pioneer elites of the DL. Many people my age say a yishuv cannot grow if the people are not "ichuti" (quality)or if people aren't exactly the same outlook.The problem came when others wanted to share the mitzva of building EY. Certain yishuvim continued to insist on purity, think Bracha, Revava. Some small yishuvim felt they had to open up klita to grow. Eli by becoming mixed. Yitzhar, Itamar, Bat Ayin, Nachliel and Tapuach by accepting charedim. The move of Eli was welcomed. The decision of Yitzhar, Itamar and Tapuach was not, to put it mildly. We have been the subject of economic and educational harassment from the moatzah and Amana for 17 years. The push for this is from Amana more than the moatzah. The Binyamin moatzah under Pinchas Wallerstein was much more accommodating.

Here in Yitzhar an illegally placed vaad is rejecting our kids who grew up here for shtuyot and have filled up the houses with people who have no respect for the majority of veteran members. If someone has power and a good kid he willo get a house but not find a job. My son who was previously accepted was unaccepted because "things change". The rav of the yishuv told them to take him and now they have quit listening to the rav.

When they tell people what schools to send to the charedim don't listen. They seriously thought we would get old and they wopuld educate our children in their way. When I told someone in the ed deptpartment that my boys were in Chabad Petach Tikva she said, "No, they're not. They are students of Elon Moreh who don't show up for class"

We lost our store. Our friend lost stores in Bracha and Itamar. His brother was pushed out in Maaleh Levona. Our friends have been fired.

Vaadot actively try to maintain an ideological compliance and if your vaad isn't bothering you then your hashkafa or choice of schools is not bothering them.

But our kids grew up here and consider it home. DH and I want to move. Main requirement: NO vaad.

chanchy123

Thu, Feb 05 2009, 3:54 am

Imaonwheels wrote:

Believe me, I know yisuvim very well, I grew up in the shomron, went to school in Kdumim, did Sherut Leumi in Gush Katif and now live in Gush Etsyon.
These things are not the same in every yishuv, I know that some of the yishuvim in Gav Hahar might have more demanding vaadot - I specifically said that, but many many others have formal vaadot if that.
The neighborhood I grew up in had two rules in its vaadat kabala, you had to sign that you were shomer shabbat and that you didn't have a criminal record. That's it. The yishuv near by did have a more restricted vaadat kabala (with some accusations of racism against mizrahim in the early years), but long ago this vaada was disband and today more or less anyone who is dati can live there.
There are so many various kinds of yishuvim that there is just no general rule for them all. Also, a lot of this elitsim no longer exists in these yishuvim.
As I said, this phenomena does exist, but not everywhere and this should definitly be taken into consideration when looking for a yishuv, but this shouldn't turn OP off of yishuvim completley.
Having grown up on a yishuv (from the age of five) and living in one presently (with two young children) all I can say is I can't find a better life style for me. I don't think it's matim for everyone but it's great for so many and I would not want OP to miss out on the wonderful oppuratunity of living in a yishuv because of such a thing.

chanchy123

Thu, Feb 05 2009, 4:04 am

Imaonwheels wrote:

Oh, and after the illegal vaad ground my dh to a pulp to rob a 50 year old veteran resident of his parnassa and kavod. After they proved that all of the 2nd generation are not welcome Miracle. Batei Amana are being built in Yitzhar.

Now I understand your situation. Perhaps the members of your yishuv feel that you have "taken over" their yishuv and are changing the מרקם (do you have a word for that in English) of the place. I'm not saying this is justified at all (especially not violence or harrassment) but I can understand how they might feel you are "hijacking" the community they strived to build.
In my yishuv we have a similar problem (I too belong to the "upstart hijackers") although, not really the same case at all but the same tension between DL and Chareidi and dif. kinds of chareidi (I'm on the DL side), so I see where you're coming from, but, I'd assume OP will choose a yishuv that is overwhelmingly her kind of people (whatever kinds that is).

BeershevaBubby

Thu, Feb 05 2009, 4:06 am

chanchy123 wrote:

And for many Va'adot, being an Anglo is just as much a 'sin' as being DL or Charedi.

chanchy123

Thu, Feb 05 2009, 4:14 am

YESHASettler wrote:

chanchy123 wrote:

And for many Va'adot, being an Anglo is just as much a 'sin' as being DL or Charedi.

You might be right there. Many yishuvim feel that they are being taken over by ghettos of english speakers who they feel they cannot connect with.
I lived in such a "ghetto" for most of my life. It is hard for me to hear people talk that way, but in a way I can understand them and might even agree. When a large organized group (that's what it seems like to the average israeli just living their life on their yishuv) moves to your yishuv and live in their own enclave, suddenly the shul becomes an american styled shul, peopel around you speak English and you feel uncomferable and ignorant in what used to be your own ground. You didn't bargain on living in America when twenty or thirty years ago you moved to this yishuv. So you see any new Anglo oleh as a threat to your old way of life.
I don't think this should be the case, but sadly it is sometimes. I think some of the olim are partly to blame as well, you can't expect to turn your new israeli home into americatown without stepping on some toes of the local inhabitants. I know this form of Aliya is matim for many olim (again, I grew up in a place like that, and an overwhelming portion of my neighbors had a very successful aliyah story because of this) but it does create ceratin fear and antagonism among the indigenous occupants.

smiley:)

Thu, Feb 05 2009, 4:16 am

YESHASettler wrote:

chanchy123 wrote:

And for many Va'adot, being an Anglo is just as much a 'sin' as being DL or Charedi.

And for many it's not! OP, rather than have ppl stam scare you you can feel free to pm me about my specific yishuv which has none of this crazy stuff.

Imaonwheels

Thu, Feb 05 2009, 4:52 am

I specifically said that Binyamin is better and I know the Gush is much more liberal. But in the Gush they also prefer making their variety with ultra modern and frei as opposed to charedim. DL used to all vote mafdal and frei likud. They worked together and split the power base. We recently defeated the recommended candidate for rosh moatza with 60% of the vote going to a local guy loved by everyone. He also mended the fences with us in Chabad, with Breslov nearly all of the charedim in the area. Many moatzah employees quit in protest saving him the controversial move of chopping heads to take care of them. He has replaced what he could of Amana penaltioes with moatzah or private money. When a house was recently destroyed 2 weeks before the builder's wedding it was rebuilt by the kablan the chatan works for. Our new RM raised the funds to pay the kablan. Amana does not want this giva anyway.

In Yitzhar nobody has voted mafdal in the last 3-4 elections. Ditto Tapuach. HaShem yishmor, there are even people who vote aguda and shas. Somebody stole the cake.

I am totally accepting that the younger generation sees things different than the older people. My married children here disagree with me on much but are well within the Yitzhar/Kever Yosef culture. Totally legitimate. They are our future. But when Amana sends someone to the rav of the yishuv saying they will cut off all Amana funds, recommend the moatza cut as well and will remind the govt that their are 5 (!) illegal givaot in Yitzhar if the new people coming in are not only accepted but put on the mazkirut. Not our young people. But young people who hate charedim coming into a yishuv where the shtarker DL get along just fine with the 1/3 charedim and start forcing changes. Those kids could move to Bet El, Ofra, Bracha or Elon Moreh and feel at home and contribute. In my eyes they fit the parable to David HaMelech to a capital T. They themselves have whole herds but they were tzar ayin on our home. And know that they have refused entrance to the dor sheni of the original DL as well. Kids that learned in Yashlatz not Chabad.

Result is a 23 year old head of the mazkirut who neither he or his wife ever had any connection to our community. They didn't come from Chabad or Od Yosef Chai and they don't respect either. He is not changing Yitzhar because he lives and cares so wants the yishuv to be better. He lives here to change Yitzhar and his pay is tons of "matteh" jobs, expense account and the right to run everything. My kids (14-26) call him the chiloni with a kippa. The older charedim now totally ignore the mazkirut and the elderly DL are in metzuka because they were raised that the "mosdot" are holy. I have let them know that when my house goes up for sale my priorities will be first if one of my children want it, then a vatik family that is renting or needs a larger home (I have 4 BRs) and then a dor sheni. I will not sell to anyone who was brought in by an illegal mazkirut.

One of the problems is ben melech melech. Many of the leaders had large families who all want to be leaders. That means they rule small yishuvim by divine right of kings.

Imaonwheels

Thu, Feb 05 2009, 5:11 am

With all I said my recommendation to OP will surprise you:

If you are able to maintain integrity and stand on your principles then the yishuvim need you. If you will suffer and your children will suffer OR if you think you will be affected by the midat Sdom of some of the people then go to a city or small town.

I moved to Yitzhar 100% out of desire to build EY. No quality of life, no kehilla like me and no need to change others. My children and DH paid a heavy price. I alone could do it again but I doubt if I would put them through it.

Although I did not come to change people saw that our kids learned better and started their own DL Talmud Torah to replace the mamad. The rav went to prove that we were wrong on kashrut and found serious problems in the rabbanut and now is the head of kashrut for the Shomron. Our mecolet proved that one could eat only mehadrin, help area growers and totally keep out Arab produce and remain affordable. Also we taught the moatzah if they insisted on sending Arab workers we did not need the fancy gardening or even new gan and maon. The maon is owned by the yishuv, guys who live here built it and it makes money. Our gan/cheder was started by me and 2 others for our 5 kids. The rest of the yishuv came and begged to be let in and the gan the moatzah refused to separate became a defacto girls' gan. After the tashtit and major expenses were paid by reshet Chabad the moatzah begged to put tjhe gan under the moatzah. We did so with tenaim incl total control to the present hanhala and gannenot remain employees of reshet Chabad. But these changes came at the request of the toshvim.

There is also a political reason. Destroying 2 caravans in Yitzhar took more time and manpower than all of Gush Katif. My married son was the 1st soldier to be jailed over a pinui. Nobody here will sing dance and cry with thiose who come to remove us. We prefer staying in our homes to being the subjects of touching movies about our churban.

Last edited by Imaonwheels on Thu, Feb 05 2009, 5:16 am; edited 1 time in total

chanchy123

Thu, Feb 05 2009, 5:11 am

Imaonwheels wrote:

Wow, sounds lile a crazy situation. This makes the politics in all other yishuvim I know seem like klum. I just learned to appreciate the situation in our yishuv (which, does, btw, have issues).
I was not aware of this situation at all (I don't really know anyone living in gav hahar). Sounds sad.
But OP must know, this is not by far the situation in most yishuvim and I do believe she'd never consider Yitzher anyway.

chanchy123

Thu, Feb 05 2009, 5:35 am

Imaonwheels wrote:

Quote:

I'd assume OP will choose a yishuv that is overwhelmingly her kind of people (whatever kinds that is).

But there is no guarantee it will stay your kind of people. In this it is very much like the homeowners' association in the US. The difference is American courts always back HOAs but what is happening in yishuvim is illegal l but people are too afraid or don't want to give ammo to leftists.

Again this is not the case in most yishuvim, this should not deter OP from moving to a yishuv. This is your personal experience from your personal point of view and does not reflect on any other yishuv besides your own, or a very small number of yishuvim in your area (ML included).

BTW OP maybe, post the names of yishuvim you are considering and we might be able to do some ground work for you.

tovarena

Thu, Feb 05 2009, 8:24 am

Wow you guys! I have NO idea I was opening SUCH a can of worms. And truthfully, I am a bit overwhelmed by the sheer volume of information here but I'm appreciative of all the different viewpoints. I guess I can't say I'm surprised at the range of experiences as that's the same thing that happens with homeowners associations here. Some people have no problems at all, some feel like they're a bit stifling but okay, and some go through complete horror stories with theirs. Right now, we fall into the latter so we're particularly gun-shy. So a few more specific questions:

A few people have mentioned that the vaads, if they decide they don't like you, can't necessarily throw you out of your home but can make you miserable. What sort of stuff does this entail? It doesn't take being part of a vaad to leave nasty notes on your door or throw rocks through your windows. Any neighbor can do that. But does the vaad have certain powers that they can levy unequally to those they don't like?
To give you an idea of what I'm getting at, where I live, HOAs have power to fine homeowners if they don't keep up their homes to the HOA's liking. So they'll use that unequally. If they like you, your house could practically be falling down around your ears and they'll ignore it. If they don't like you and you have one shrub out of place or one spot of peeling paint, BOOM! Fix it in some ridiculously short time window or pay a fine and the HOA will do it for you and bill you on top of the fine. Are these vaads set up in such a way to do those types of petty bullying?

Also, a few of you have mentioned building funds of something of the like. Are these generally one time buy-in type fees? Or are they monthly fees? Is this the norm for most yishuvim that they have some sort of fee at one point or another?

And to get a bit more specific. What prompted this is that I have been plowing through all the community information on NBN and Tehilla's web sites (which, BTW, are wildly varying one to the other in terms of neighborhood info!). The yishuvim that showed up on my list that DH didn't want to consider (in part) because they mentioned acceptance committees are Neve Daniel and Kochav Yaakov, though it sounds like we would have a hard time finding anything to buy anyway in Neve Daniel. Does anyone know anything about their vaads?

Thanks so much y'all!

tomorrow

Thu, Feb 05 2009, 10:05 am

I'm in Kochav Yaakov and the acceptance committee has been around forever. Mostly, so much as I can tell, it's trying to weed out people that have no parnassah and chareidim that expect everyone else to hold chareidi norms. We have so many families here that need assistance that we really can't deal with more of them. The committee is for renters AND buyers alike. Nobody votes for you to become a member of the yishuv, though. That is automatic if you pay your yishuv taxes and have lived here for two years or more renting or for six months as a homeowner.

Still, the English-speaking population here, even with the va'ada, has had about one each of every "issue" around, including a pedophile, christians masquerading as Jews, those who have no way of supporting themselves financially, and a host of other problems. I wouldn't get rid of the committee for the world. That said, I've heard they don't present themselves very well, as far as making people feel as though they've been grilled over. They could say, "You know, we've had a number of issues pop up over the years, which is why we're going to have to ask you a number of probing questions. This should be the first and last time we do this, and it's for all our ours, and your happiness and protection." or some such thing.

There is a fee for living here, which in my day was 5,000 shekels. It was half for infrastructure and half for the building of the main shul, which as of yet, doesn't have a section for Ashkenazim, though many do happily daven there, my husband included (minchah and sometimes ma'ariv).