Do you say hello to male neighbors?

↑ Chayalle ↓

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 10:46 am

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

Chayalle, not sure if you're aware but there are many sources (gemara, Rambam, Shulchan Aruch and others) for not being behind a woman, which is what happens when one holds open the door for them, which is not a 'Jewish' form of mentchlichkeit. In fact, the Rambam states that 'Anyone who walks in back of a woman is a lowly ignoramus.' And Rashi also adds that 'It is disgraceful to walk in back of one's wife. Aaaand if it wasn't clear enough, we see in the Shulchan Aruch "If he encounters a woman in front of him in the market, he may not walk in back of her. Rather, he runs and goes to the side or in front of her."

I read through your examples and fail to see your point. Men can be tznius in their interactions with women and still have good middos. I'm not surprised by this, in fact I feel it goes hand in hand. I've also been helped by the same men who don't wish me a "good morning' or whatever, and I don't see why one would contradict the other.

If a man goes ahead of a woman to hold the door for her, how is he walking in back of her? (it doesn't say anything about standing back while holding the door in the Rambam).

You think the R"Y who went ahead of my sister to hold the door for her didn't know what the Rambam says? (He's a very well-known RY in the yeshivish world. Just not saying who for my own privacy.)

Honestly, your sources here are a perversion of the Rambam. And the men who do this are perverting it too, and that's the problem with the lack of mentchlichkeit we see today - people who take this kind of thing too far.

↑ DVOM

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 10:57 am

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

Ok, I write 'concisely' because I'm cooking for shabbat. To be blunt- as nostalgic as people are about their grandparents, what they did was not appropriate - not the shmoozing, not the lack of hair covering, not the pants and not the short clothing. I don't see any ideal in what you're describing. I don't need to shmooze with my neighbors and have bunny chats with men because I feel socially fulfilled by interacting with other women and family members.

I have no issue with your concise posts. You seemed annoyed with my 'unnecessarily lengthy' ones.

I am nostalgic regarding the values and mores of my grandparents and even my parents' generation. There was more space to be imperfect, to grow in your own ways and on your own terms and at your own pace. There was less conformity or stringency with tznius and relationships between men and women, more ways to be ok. I think when we define 'good' and 'appropriate' in such narrow terms, we create a lot of shame and guilt that doesn't do anyone any good. I don't think their behavior was perfect. I don't think my behavior is perfect. I don't think any of us can claim perfection or that we are living the 'ideal'. But I do think that there was less shame about being imperfect, and therefore more space to grow. Do you think your community is 'ideal' in terms of it's tznius and the way it navigates relationships between men and women?

Let's talk about social fulfillment. My social fulfillment at this point in my life comes from my husband, my little boys, my sisters, some female coworkers and neighbors. I don't find that the polite, courteous conversations with my male neighbors (and male co-workers for that matter) provide me with social fulfillment. But it is pleasant and fulfilling to feel part of a community where I am acknowledged and respected. Up until three years ago, when we moved to this neighborhood, I lived in a Lakewood development where the norm was for male neighbors no to look at, acknowledge or talk to female neighbors. I did not feel at all socially unfulfilled. But there's no denying that I feel more valued and welcomed in my neighborhood by all my neighbors, both male and female.

amother

↑ Sapphire

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 12:08 pm

Men are not supposed to make eye contact with women at all. Its really fooling yourself if you think a man could look at a dressed up woman and have no inappropriate thoughts. Im not chassidish at all but I so admire their approach to areas of kedusha. They are the closest to the emes. This whole mentality of being polite and friendly to the opposite gender is completely from the secular world. Im thrilled that my female neighbors dont say hi to my husband and I feel very correct not greeting my male neighbors. We are all frum litvish, not even super yeshivish.
Men and women are supposed to be conpletely separate. The men that ignore women to maintain total purity are to be admired and respected. They are the real heros in this crazy upside down world where many women think its rude if a frum man doesnt greet them. And they are the most loyal to their wives- saving their eyes for their spouses only. This is the correct derech for everyone.

amother

Denim ↓

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 12:12 pm

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

One size fits all.

amother

Green ↓

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 12:24 pm

amother [ Sapphire ] wrote:

Agree. I consider myself lucky that my DH doesn’t greet or look at my female friends or neighbors.
I always feel bad for the wife whose DH is super friendly and has no problem looking at other females. Somehow I believe she wishes her DH would be more like the ones who don’t look or greet.

amother

Brunette

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 1:14 pm

I think that everything comes down to balance.
I work in a yishivishe daycare and 99% of the fathers who drop off say a polite "thank you" and "how was he/she?"
That is normal and makes us teachers feel like human beings.
Then there are the men that are extreme. Those who leave the kid by the door, I dont even see them to be able to ask any questions if I wanted to. And those men who chat too much when dropping or picking up. Asking how your child's day was is normal, starting a conversation...I'd rather the wife give me a call.
Nodding at or saying good shabbos to your male neighbors should be looked at as basic human courtesy. Saying thank you to a female who helped you out like in a store, your child's teacher etc etc is basic human decency.
Let's not over sexualize everything. We have enough of that with blurred pictures of little girls.

↑ naturalmom5

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 1:48 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

Obnoxiously, self-righteous much ????

This is what I see daily, women take this " minhag" , so intensely that all DD Naim goes out the window

The Alter f Kelm said with frumkeit you can destroy the whole world...

↑ Mommyg8

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 1:55 pm

amother [ Green ] wrote:

You don't have to feel bad for me, I'm perfectly fine.

And no, I don't wish he would be more like the ones who don't look or greet, and I'm perfectly fine saying this here. He's friendly and kind to everybody and I think that's great.

amother

↑ Green

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 2:16 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Good for you. I’m talking on behalf of those wives who do wish their DH wouldn’t be so friendly to other ladies. There are many out there.
So you can count yourself lucky too.

amother

↑ Blue

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 2:19 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

I happen to agree with you.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the above examples you give.
But I think it’s wrong to make fun of “those who over-sexualize everything” and just nod.
Part of being open minded and a mensch is accepting that there are different ways.
Those who ignore me don’t make me feel like an object and I hope that when I ignore other men they don’t feel like objects either, or wild animals, or whatever other analogy was mentioned upthread, I didn’t read every single post.
(And in my experience they are actually nicer and more respectful to women in the big picture even if they don’t shmooze, but that’s another topic. I don’t find the more liberal approach to be more respectful to women. Not at all).
And a father saying thank you when picking up his child definitely doesn’t make anyone feel uncomfortable.

amother

↑ Denim

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 2:48 pm

amother [ Green ] wrote:

And my husband is awkward around women, and I wouldn't mind if he'd be more confident and sociable.

But he does try to be polite and will thank a teacher or nurse, etc....but likely without making eye contact. I wouldn't mind if he would.

↑ malki2

Fri, Aug 14 2020, 6:48 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

Of course it’s fine and mentchlich for a father to speak to his kid’s morah. Let’s be normal here. We are talking specifically about greeting members of the opposite s@x on the street. In some places it’s the norm, in others it’s not. If you live in a place where it’s not, just accept it. No one overs@xualizes women. It’s accepted by both men and women. If you can’t live with it, you probably shouldn’t have moved there in the first place. But all it is is Minhag Hamakom and that’s that.