I'm a frum woman + tallit and tefillin. Ask me anything.

BlueRose52

Fri, Apr 26 2013, 11:05 am

Merrymom wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

If women do not serve a public role in shul, it's for tznius reasons.

Are you aware that according to the gemara (Megillah 23a) a woman is allowed to get an aliya? It's only restricted because of kavod hatzibur (there is discussion of what exactly "kavod hatzibur" means, but consensus is that it's NOT about tznius). How does that fit with your notion that public roles for women are not tznius?

I'm trying to imagine being called up to an aliyah and walking up to the bima in my heels, long shaitel, and rather attractive dress (if I do say so myself). I think that would feel like the walk of shame. I certainly couldn't fathom how that picture would be tznius or appropriate. There's a reason for a mechitzah and we don't belong on that side.

I just showed you that chazal clearly don't agree with what you're claiming here. You've always struck me as someone that sees the views as chazal as absolutely sacrosanct. Now, I wouldn't think it fair to ask you to actually do anything that you feel uncomfortable with, but how can you keep insisting on a view that chazal disagree with? Are you saying chazal were wrong?

bamamama

Fri, Apr 26 2013, 11:11 am

Merrymom wrote:

princessleah wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

princessleah wrote:

Oy oy oy. The day when someone calls walking to say a Bracha over the Torah as a "walk of shame" just to reinforce women's status as having to be behind a wall? Oy.

FTR, when I get an Aliyah, in my flats, tallit and normal-looking hair, I feel if anything, a walk of pride. And when it's normal in your congregation for women to do that, people pay as little attention to you as when the old man is walking up.

I'm assuming that you're not orthodox then (which is fine with me, I want this site open to Jewish women from all walks of life, I just want to know where you're coming from)?

For me personally, I would hate to live in a community where men have become so accustomed to women in every facet of their life that they have become jaded to them. I appreciate my significance to them, that I would be a disturbance to their kavanah. Not that I want to directly cause that but it makes women feel special somehow.

As you must have seen on this very site, there are multiple participatory minyanim in the Orthodox world that give women aliyot. I'll refrain from reporting your post but please try not to accuse other posters on here of not following the rules based on your interpretations.

As for me, I'm happy to be viewed as just another person rather than a s e x object. That to me is one of the hearts of feminist thinking. I have a husband. I'm ok with not having an 'effect' on any other man.

It doesn't take away my humanity by recognizing that men are attracted to women. Does your dh not see you as both? Why can't that apply to everyone else as well.

Btw, I would love to hear about an orthodox shul with a mixed gender minyan, as far as I know that's forbidden by all orthodox groups but if I'm ignorant about that, I'd like to be enlightened as this is the first time ever hearing of this.

AIUI, Merrymom, in egalitarian shuls, women don't count as part of the minyan. Getting an aliyah has nothing to do with minyan. In this thread (or another?), someone mentioned that the Gemara says women can get aliyot as long as it isn't a problem that affects the kavod hatzibur. Since egalitarian shuls have decided to jettison the 2nd class status of women wherever possible, they have no problem giving an aliyah to a woman.

miami85

Fri, Apr 26 2013, 11:42 am

I think the problem is this association of lack of participation = lower class. Those who think that are missing the point. It's like a 20/20 vision person walking into a room full of glasses wearers and thinking "why can't I have glasses too"--the answer is you don't need it. If you decide to put on sunglasses or frames with plastic lenses just to look cool--then it's superficial. Men have "imperfect" neshamos that must be brought up through certain mitzvos that women--with higher neshamos do not need.
It's like asking why the diamonds aren't out on display with the CZ-- it must be SO degrading to keep the diamonds behind those glass doors when the CZ get to be on the counter. The point of mechitzos is to keep 'what is beautiful and precious' where it can be special and not on display with the 'cheap stuff'.

That's why I'm so curious about this desire for tallit and tefillin--why do you think that your neshama needs this to be whole? If it wasn't designated as a women's mitzvah then it must have been that Women don't need this mitzvah in their repertoire.

Why is there SUCH a desire to WANT to daven as a minyan? I'm sure that men would MUCH rather prefer to daven b'yichidus and not have to worry about catching minyan 3x a-day (something that I had to adjust to when we got married and travelling became an issue).

bamamama

Fri, Apr 26 2013, 1:03 pm

miami85 wrote:

The apologetics you are citing were created by kiruv professionals to help women adjust to their separate-and-unequal role in Judaism. If those thoughts are what get you through, by all means. Certainly the reasons you cite defy rational thought. To someone who is a rationalist (as is certainly more common in the MO world), the idea that women are precious and have to be hidden away by a mechitza is laughable. There are halachic reasons for having a mechitza.

I'm guessing that you usually daven in your house or in shul. Yet thousands of Breslovers think they connect with Hashem better through hitbodedut. Why do their neshamas seek hitbodedut when yours is content with davening indoors? Can you imagine that, for OP, davening with tallis and tefillin might be similar?

miami85

Sat, Apr 27 2013, 7:31 pm

bamamama wrote:

miami85 wrote:

I wasn't citing specific sources, but using what I thought were logical scenarios. I'm not so familiar with Breslover Chassidim, but hisbodedut is a concept in kabbalah--but not universally practiced. A woman davening with tallit and tefillin has no source in Judaism. Using a "rationalist" approach, if you feel that being wrapped up in a shawl helps you block out distractions and feel more connected with HaShem, then why not use a shawl? Why a "tallit"? Yes there is a philosophical background to wearing something on the top of the head-think Cardinals, think ancient Chinese philosophers, that is supposed to help one to focus and think-but why tefillin?

I'm not sure what your sources are that are so bent on making women feel 2nd class, it may come across that way considering the historic role of women, but there are also many instances where women are placed on prominent pedestals and considered to be more valuable than men.
Since you seem to be so keen on kabbalistic ideas. The idea of why men need to daven with a minyan and women don't comes from the idea that a man NEEDs to be part of a group for his tefillah to be important whereas a woman's tefillah is special without the need of a group. A woman has a HIGHER spiritual state than a man because she has the power to create life. After the birth of a girl a woman has a longer state of tumah for that reason.

Shma b'ni mussar avicha v'al titosh toras imecha--a woman teaching Torah to her children is extremely important.

A woman is called the "akeres habayis"--the foundation of the home

Eishes Chayil--we don't sing "Ish Chayal"

B'zechus Nashim tzidkaniyos nigalu avoseinu

I'm sorry if you feel that I'm using "apologetics"--but they have basis and merit and are fundamentals of Judaism, if you don't agree, then I'm not sure what religion you are part of. As a Jew I am proud to be a woman, I don't feel unequal. I feel that I have a DIFFERENT role in Judaism, but it's not inferior. My feeling is that when men can have babies, women can be rabbis-- men and women have different tafkidim in life, and it has nothing to do with intelligence, but inherent physical and physiological differences.

DrMom

Sat, Apr 27 2013, 8:44 pm

Merrymom wrote:

BlueRose52 wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

If women do not serve a public role in shul, it's for tznius reasons.

All the men in my dh's shul know who I am. When they pass me in the hall they either nod their head or say "Good Shabbos, Mrs. _" so you can understand that I feel very comfortable around them, they're a wonderful group of men. Yet I'm trying to imagine being called up to an aliyah and walking up to the bima in my heels, long shaitel, and rather attractive dress (if I do say so myself). I think that would feel like the walk of shame. I certainly couldn't fathom how that picture would be tznius or appropriate. There's a reason for a mechitzah and we don't belong on that side. Thank heavens we don't have a public role (just btw this shul is not the "shushing the women" kind of shul at all, everybody is very respectful and when I say the bracha after giving birth loud enough forthe entire shul to hear, behind the curtain of course, I'm perfectly fine with that).

If the way you dress is really so attention-grabbing, and making you feel so self-conscious and ashamed, maybe you should tone it down a bit.

ora_43

Sat, Apr 27 2013, 11:25 pm

bamamama wrote:

Women aren't the only ones with a different role in Judaism. Most men aren't cohanim. Are the explanations of why the average man in Israel doesn't need to do what a Cohen does apologetics to help them adjust to their lesser role?

Even if there were no differences within men's roles, I don't think saying "apologetics" is an adequate explanation here. It's not like there was an existing reality where people wore tefillin for spiritual reasons but then Jewish tradition came along and said women don't need to do that - the sources that say only men are obligated in tefillin are the same sources that teach us about tefillin to begin with. And it's not like tefillin is something that people would have thought up on their own without those sources.

Making the question of why women would feel that tefillin are a spiritual necessity for them (that they are being denied) quite logical.

And again I'll add the disclaimer that I don't think it's assur for women to wear tefillin.

bamamama

Sat, Apr 27 2013, 11:33 pm

ora_43 wrote:

bamamama wrote:

The reasons she was quoting, though, had little to do with halacha and more to do with apologetics.

bamamama

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 12:13 am

miami85 wrote:

bamamama wrote:

miami85 wrote:

For those playing along, these are the apologetics - feel-good reasons created ex post facto to gently explain something.

miami85 wrote:

Why not a tallit? Why not tefillin? Tefillin are more than just a hat to help one focus and think. They are holy words of Torah that you symbolically place upon your head and arm to fulfill the mitzvah "uchshartam le'ot al yadecha v'hayu l'totafot bein einecha". This is very powerful for a Jew - male or female. If someone is serious about davening more than just the minimum required, why wouldn't you want to have this type of physical connection to a mitzvah?

Quote:

I'm not sure what your sources are that are so bent on making women feel 2nd class, it may come across that way considering the historic role of women, but there are also many instances where women are placed on prominent pedestals and considered to be more valuable than men.
Since you seem to be so keen on kabbalistic ideas. The idea of why men need to daven with a minyan and women don't comes from the idea that a man NEEDs to be part of a group for his tefillah to be important whereas a woman's tefillah is special without the need of a group. A woman has a HIGHER spiritual state than a man because she has the power to create life. After the birth of a girl a woman has a longer state of tumah for that reason.

real, halachic source, please, not just a feel-good reason someone posited in a shiur and which caught on in the kiruv community.

Quote:

I'm sorry if you feel that I'm using "apologetics"--but they have basis and merit and are fundamentals of Judaism, if you don't agree, then I'm not sure what religion you are part of. As a Jew I am proud to be a woman, I don't feel unequal. I feel that I have a DIFFERENT role in Judaism, but it's not inferior. My feeling is that when men can have babies, women can be rabbis-- men and women have different tafkidim in life, and it has nothing to do with intelligence, but inherent physical and physiological differences.

Had to go for the kofer comment, huh? You can be satisfied with your role - your choice. OP does not have to be satisfied with her "role" when it's completely acceptable within halacha to do what she's doing.

PinkFridge

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 5:58 pm

bamamama wrote:

celestial wrote:

I don't think it means you are hereby required to have your consciousness raised.

It means you should probably expand your idea of what is good/right/true/genuine within Orthodoxy if you were so repulsed by the idea of women putting on tallis and teffilin due to some apologetics of some kind that really just serve to justify Jewish habit, not Jewish spirituality. I'm not saying that's you PinkFridge, I'm just saying that's the takeway in my opinion.

^Celestial nailed it.

's ok, PF. I also respect that there are FFB women with serious mesorah behind what they do and are comfortable with. If people want to come up with/believe poetic ideas which explain certain practices in their brand of Orthodoxy, that's not a problem. But to try to use those flowery explanations to convince someone to stop what she's doing (when what she's doing is TOTALLY legit!) isn't really respectful of other brands of Orthodoxy.

I'm still having a hard time not feeling patronized and condescended to for buying into this. All I ask from the same people who I've repeatedly not lambasted, whose shoes I've tried to put myself in (ouch! I have big flat feet), whose rabbanim I might not follow but who I will not summarily dismiss, is for "the flowery apologetics" to be granted legitimacy. I believe that the mesorah for this goes back further than latter 20th century kiruvville.

Bli neder, I'm better with tackling the written word than listening to shiurim. I'm going to try to dig up a pamphlet I have that was given out at a 1970s BY convention on women's lib based on the writings of Rav Hirsch. I think there's some good, you should pardon the expression juicy stuff there. I'll be back.... Tongue Out

miami85

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 6:14 pm

bamamama wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

bamamama wrote:

The reasons she was quoting, though, had little to do with halacha and more to do with apologetics.

The diamonds vs. whatever-it-was part wasn't halacha. But I don't think it can be called apologetics unless you're saying that there's no legitimate reason to say that women aren't obligated in tefillin. It's only apologetics if there's something to apologize for.

We wouldn't call it apologetics if a man said that men's souls are inherently higher than women's.

The rest I think was legitimate, maybe not halacha but I think probably an accurate reading of the halachic view. "If my soul needed (tefillin/to bless the congregation) Hashem would have made me (a man/a Cohen)" is a fairly standard way to relate to mitzvot that other Jews are obligated in but you (general you) aren't.

She's "apologizing" for the second-class role women have when it comes to davening/shul.

I have nothing to "apologize" for because I don't feel like a "2nd class citizen" I understand that it's not meant for me. Especially since husband and wife are considered "1-unit" what my husband gets is part of mine also. I'm proud to say the bracha "sh'asani kirtzono"

BlueRose52

Sun, Apr 28 2013, 7:20 pm

miami85 wrote:

I understand that not having certain religious obligations doesn't make you feel that way. But does it not make you feel just a little bit - an eensy weensy bit - second class being told that your word doesn't count for anything in a court of law? Or that you have zero standing on your own to divorce an abusive husband? Or that you have no right to any inheritance if you have brothers? Does that not seem a little bit unfair?

I genuinely applaud that you don't feel second-class in yiddishkeit. Thankfully, in contemporary day-to-day life, even though there are distinct roles expected, frum society generally accords appropriate respect and consideration to women (in most circles). But it's indisputable that there are many aspects of Jewish tradition, law and thought which do look upon women as second class. The gender discrimination is all over the place, if you care to look with an unbiased eye.