When I asked for Shabbos hospitality, told "stay in hot

ora_43

Wed, Jul 21 2010, 1:44 pm

I think it's an OOT/"in town" mindset thing.

When you live really out of town, in general, people love to have guests, and it doesn't matter much when or why. Because that one extra frum family in town is already increasing the size of the community by around 5%, and because it's interesting to have someone new to talk to on Shabbat. But mostly because it is very, very rare for someone to take advantage. At least where I used to live, if someone was there, it was usually because they had to be (although if someone came for fun, the community would be extra excited, since anyone who's hanging for fun might be a potential new community member).

When you're "in town," hosting people isn't so much a fascinating chance to connect to the frum world at large as it is a hassle. Because you're already connected to the frum world at large, and you get a chance to meet new frum people all the time. And also because if you offer free meals and hosting to the world at large, there will be enough people who take advantage that at some point you'll stop being so friendly.

When I was way OOT I could count on one hand the number of people who came to visit in an entire year. There was no need for me to set limits, since the limits were imposed by external reality. When dh and I lived near central Jerusalem, I'm sure we could have had 5 or 10 or 50 people over each Shabbat if we'd wanted. So we had to set some limits, because we didn't want that many people every Shabbat.

So that explains his advice to stay in a hotel IMO. Although there was no need to be rude about it. People living "in town" should remember that what's considered rude where they live may be considered perfectly polite elsewhere (and vice versa).

It was very nice of the other woman to offer you her house. To be dan l'chaf zchut on the rabbi though, I think it was probably presented differently to him. Whoever asked her might have put it as "a former shul member needs a place...," to him, you're a random stranger who doesn't really need a place.

aidelmaidel

Wed, Jul 21 2010, 1:47 pm

Inspired wrote:

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

Point being- if a conservative family has such Hachnasat Orchim, why doesnt the frum community?- and this is coming from someone who does host total strangers + kids, overnight and meals.

Because its a rarity most likely. The frum community probably gets many such requests this time of year.
As I said above I don't really understand why you would want to make yourself into an orayach for vacation, its not something I would do, and I wouldn't appreciate people doing it to me.
IMO hachnasa orchim is for those who need to be in your town for specific reasons, not including vacation, or those who otherwise need a place to be.
IMO frum communities have plenty of hachnsas orchim, when appropriate. I don't think free vacation accommodations are included in that.

I kind of disagree. Hachnasat Orchim - is just that - having guests. I try not to ask why when I have guests. I personally try to stay with people I know or friends of friends. I personally would feel uncomfortable just asking for any family to take me (or me and my family in for shabbos) although I did it plenty when I was single. I've been a guest for a "getaway shabbos" (like this one coming up), because of a medical situation, and because of a work situation. In all instances I called up in advance and asked a friend if it was possible to stay with them. BH it generally works out.

I get asked all the time to take guests and at this point in my life, FOR THE SAKE OF MY SHALOM BAYIS, I only take guests that a) I know personally, b) a friend asks for a friend and vouches for them, or c) come to me from a known source (ie the local yeshiva asks if we can host someone for shabbos, and they know the person).

I stopped after one too many calls from random people saying, "I got your name from X, can you host _____ for shabbos/yom tov/the week before and after the wedding," and then having issues with said guests (including the sem girls from overseas who got shikkered and vomited all over my bathroom on ST and then left it for me to find in the morning).

I love having guests, but at this point in our marriage, we only take sleeping guests with the above stipulations. And since we have many "out of town" friends with teenage/young adult children, we have become their de riguer place to call for a place to sleep for their kids. After coming to the conclusion that while these kids are all generally responsible mature individuals, they are after all *kids*, and it is our responsibility to set ground rules for them. I'm not saying adults need these rules, but teenagers do.

And Hachnasas Orchim means different things to different people. I once went to a home in the five towns that was HUGE and the entire basement was gorgeously done with FOUR guest rooms, a living space, and 2 or 3 bathrooms. It was like a private apartment. My guest room is a single bedroom with a bunkbed, a foldup cot and a pack and play if needed. But we always have the beds freshly made, towels out, and negel vasser. When I was in Eretz Yisroel (as a single girl) I went away for shabbos and was told to bring my own linens and was given a 2inch thick foam mattress on the floor. Everyone does it differently and has different standards. It's not for us to judge what others do, only to judge ourselves.

Ima2NYM_LTR

Wed, Jul 21 2010, 1:49 pm

Inspired wrote:

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

Point being- if a conservative family has such Hachnasat Orchim, why doesnt the frum community?- and this is coming from someone who does host total strangers + kids, overnight and meals.

What part of "I told them I would pay/get food/help cook/sleep in our sleeping bags" dont you understand?

And Im not saying they HAVE to offer us hospitality, Im saying I find it surprising that the leader of a community would be so hostile to a visitor. I asked if there would be a person WILLING (their choice) to host us and he got pissy with me.

Why dont I want to stay in a hotel?

A) It is not a Shabbos atmosphere at all. Sitting stuck (remember, most hotels have electronic key cards) in a small room with 2 young kids eating take out with nothing to do (we wont have much room for kids to bring a lot of toys) for 25 hrs is not a Shabbos I would wish on anyone.
B) itll cost $200 between lodging and food. For reference. Lodging for the other 5 nights of our trip combined cost $114.
C) I am FROM the area. I MISS the area. I want to be PART of the community again, even if for only 1 day.

Ima2NYM_LTR

Wed, Jul 21 2010, 2:21 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

C) I am FROM the area. I MISS the area. I want to be PART of the community again, even if for only 1 day.

BIL came to town a number of months ago, wanted to visit his old haunts, and got the same run around. Said he was loathe to pay to stay in a town that he was from. Being that he moved away a number of years ago, and his social cirlce changed, I'm not sure what he expected ... and, as I said before, I had that once when I went to visit my parents. I was screwed & never stayed for Shabbos again.

Bottom line is, as correct as you are, you can't make people do what's right, or what you want. If we could, we'd all be well paid litigation attorneys & life coaches.

oh, for sure. I cannot force people to host me, nor would I want to. What shocked me was that I was shut out before even getting the opportunity to have word spread around the community at large.

I can understand "Im sorry, I cannot think of anyone who has room"
I can understand "I checked around, but no one is able to help"
I can understand "generally our congregation isnt able to help, but you may want to ask over at shul XYZ"

and again-payment wasnt an issue- well not a huge one. IF there was someone WILLING to have us for Shabbos, we would have paid them for the food/inconvenience.

Again key phrases (for everyone who keeps missing them, not specifically CM)
ASK
IF WILLING/ABLE
WILL PAY/HELP
IF THEY CANT THINK OF SOMEONE
HAVE OWN BEDS
JUST SEEING IF IT IS A POSSIBILITY

Bottom line is: If there is a family in the area who enjoys having guest and has the room and is willing/able to have us come spend shabbos with them, we would be grateful. We would use our own bedding and pay for food and help out in whatever way possible. If there is no one who can help, that is fine- we were only asking

Inspired

Wed, Jul 21 2010, 2:22 pm

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

Inspired wrote:

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

Point being- if a conservative family has such Hachnasat Orchim, why doesnt the frum community?- and this is coming from someone who does host total strangers + kids, overnight and meals.

What part of "I told them I would pay/get food/help cook/sleep in our sleeping bags" dont you understand?

I understand it fully. you seem not to be understanding the other side at all.
Do you think paying (much less than a hotel would cost), helping cook, sleeping in sleeping bags means that it doesn't cost the hosts money, time, effort, shalom bayis to have you there?

Ima2NYM_LTR

Wed, Jul 21 2010, 2:27 pm

Inspired wrote:

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

Inspired wrote:

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

Point being- if a conservative family has such Hachnasat Orchim, why doesnt the frum community?- and this is coming from someone who does host total strangers + kids, overnight and meals.

What part of "I told them I would pay/get food/help cook/sleep in our sleeping bags" dont you understand?

I understand it- because I have had people stay in my house who come, dont lift a finger, sleep in my beds, eat my food and dont pay a cent. yet I still do it because these are Jews and they asked for a place to stay.

I know there are many people who dont feel the same way, and thats fine. What I had been doing was calling the Rabbi to see if there is someone in their community who would be willing. For those who enjoy this mitzvah, it is not an imposition.

I want forcing myself on any one family. I was asking if there existed a family that would not see it as an imposition.

Ima2NYM_LTR

Wed, Jul 21 2010, 2:48 pm

Inspired wrote:

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

For those who enjoy this mitzvah, it is not an imposition.

You don't think saying that is kind of pompous?
For many years hachnasas orchim was my thing. We had many guests every shabbos and often during the week as well. But, circumstances changed and although I LOVE the mitzva of hachnasas orchim tremendously it is now too much for me to do what I once did, and yes, now it is an imposition. Some weeks we don't even have any guests. You have no right to say that for those who enjoy it it is not an imposition.

Fine. I will rephrase.

There are many who enjoy the mitzvah and do not always find it to be an imposition. Some people enjoy the mitzvah but cannot alway perform it- of course. I understand that.

It certainly doesnt hurt to ask around and see if there is anyone who can help. "Sorry, no one can help" is a valid answer.

Ima2NYM_LTR

Wed, Jul 21 2010, 2:49 pm

yaelinIN wrote:

Wow! I am always surprised when this happens as our family finds this mitzvah very, very important.

This summer we needed Shabbos accomodations for our family. Tried one place - no one there that Shabbos, another - no one willing to host, and in the end we had to go THREE hours away to spend Shabbos in any sort of community (we met the nicest people that Shabbos!). We have lived in many places, popular and not and many of those hard to obtain kosher food (like Tokyo and here), and always are thrilled to have people over, even if it is somewhat inconvenient. Come to W Lafayette IN and we will treat you like royalty!

Thanks. Id love to take you up on it, but its a tad out of my way.

but if you are ever in Albany and need a roof and some food, let me know. Just to warn you though-we are quite insane

Inspired

Wed, Jul 21 2010, 2:54 pm

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

Inspired wrote:

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

For those who enjoy this mitzvah, it is not an imposition.

Why is "you should probably just get a hotel" or whatever was said not equivalent to that?
If the rabbi is used to these requests he knows who can, who can't and that he can't ask this week or whatever.

eschaya

Wed, Jul 21 2010, 2:59 pm

ora_43 wrote:

I totally agree, and I just recently noticed this fact starkly. I live in a tiny frum community, and everyone has guests almost every week, most often finding out about them at the very last minute. There are times when an hour before shabbos I get a call that three boys need a place to stay, can I host them in my basement? And since everyone knows everyone, if someone can't host the guests she'll take responsibility for calling the other eligible hosts to make sure the guests have a place to stay and eat for Shabbos. Dh and I were on vacation 2 weeks ago in a place with no real frum community but one tiny shul that usually gets a minyan Shabbos day, and we had bought some local food and created for ourselves a puny, but acceptable Shabbos meal. Then after shul a member invited us and two others to his home for Shabbos, and when we arrived, his wife had set the table for guests, just in case her husband would bring some home!! Mi keamcha yisral!!
On the other, and unfortunate, hand, last week a friend of ours called us and said that his fiance would be stuck in my hometown (a large frum community) for Shabbs - would I have any connections to find her a place to stay? And I was so mortified!! No one could direct me to someone who was comfortable having a stranger stay for Shabbos! I was so hurt and embarrassed for my city. B"h the girl ended up finding her own connections, but it was terrible that in a big city, no one wanted to do real Hachnasas orchim. As I discussed this with dh, we noted how many of the people we thought of (as potential hosts) do lots of "hachnasas orchim" - like having friends over for meals, hosting gedolim and other well known people... but those are both ways of hosting for their own pleasure and ego, not for people who truly need. Quite disheartening.
Of course we have to be dan lekav zechus for the people in OPs situation, but in general there seems to be place for improvement, especially in larger established towns.

8mom

Wed, Jul 21 2010, 4:33 pm

I've got lots to say about this, and I hope that I will phrase it in a way that no one will get insulted but try to understand from the other side.

We live in an oot community and we have many tourists especially in the summer time. We know who we can ask to host guests, but as the frum community shrinks it becomes harder and especially during the holiday period. We, together with many members of our community do hachnasas orchim on a regular basis and just because one week we can't host x amount of guests doesn't mean a thing.

I asked my dh the other day (not in connection with this topic) - Where do you draw the line between doing chesed and being used by someone? We are obligated to do the mitzvah of Hachnasas Orchim - we are not obligated to give someone a free holiday.

And just one last point about rabbis - THEY WORK ON SHABBOS and having guests can sometimes be more difficult because of this. My dh gets up before 6 am on Shabbos to prepare leining, a shiur and a sermon. Shul starts at 9:30 am and we don't come home much before 1 pm, dh having davened shacharis and musaph, leined, sermon, spoken to as many of 150 members at the kiddush that he can and then given a shiur. You can imagine that we don't often have guests during the day.

Rabbis also have a family that they like to spend time with, especially during the summer when children who are away come home from sem, yeshiva, school etc.

Fox

Wed, Jul 21 2010, 5:01 pm

After reading all the responses, I have to assume that the rabbi with whom you spoke was having a bad day.

As other posters have indicated, there are times in your life when you are able to welcome anyone and everyone, and other times when you simply can't for various reasons. We could endlessly debate the permutations of this, but the bottom line is that, whatever the reason you can't have guests, it surely doesn't apply to your entire community. And even if it did, how did this rabbi know that there was no one available? Had they held a meeting the night before?

I can certainly understand a situation in which no accommodations can be found. But it sounds like this rabbi had no intention of asking and/or the community has no system for helping people fulfill the mitzvah of hachnoses orchim in a way that prevents burnout or excessive burdens.

I'm not sure the reason someone needs accommodations is really relevant. If you are able to help, you do; if not, not.

ora_43

Wed, Jul 21 2010, 5:19 pm

eschaya, your post reminded me of something, so I went and found it:

from Ethics from Sinai, Rav Irving Bunim's divrei Torah on Pirkei Avot, talking about perek 1 mishna 5:

Quote:

Notice that both the previous dictum of Yosei ben Yoezer as well as the teaching of Yosei ben Yochanan address themselves to the problem of hospitality. The former, however, emphasizes the importance of having sages as your guests, while the latter stresses the value of having your home open wide for the poor. It could be conjectured that their divergence in emphasis stems from the fact that Yosei ben yoezer was a man of Tzeredah, a small town, while Yosei ben Yochanan was a resident of Jerusalem, the large city. In a small town, the more distinguished the guest, the greater the problem. Each household is fearful that his home may not be attractive enough or sumptuous enough for the distinguished guest. If the guest be a religious personality, the host may be self-conscious of his own ignorance or lapses of religious observance. Hence Yosei ben Yoezer stresses the need to receive the sage, the distinguished guest, properly and with dignity.

In the metropolis, however, the distinguished guest never lacks for a place to stay. Here the affluent and the social elite vie for the opportunity to display their opulence and good taste to their guest, and to garner the prestige involved in having the renowned visitor as their personal guest. The poor man, however, has a dreadfully difficult time. Few vie for his favor. Furthermore, the indigent one might be unkempt and his mannerisms not of the finest. Therefore, says Yosei ben Yochanan, the man of Jerusalem: Let your home be open wide and, in particular, make room for the poor.

Now I know this is only so relevant here, since the city in question probably isn't quite a metropolis, and of course I'm not trying to imply that anyone is unkempt or has less than the finest mannerisms.

I just found it interesting that, according to this interpretation at least, the OOT/"in town" gap when it comes to hachnasat orchim apparently dates back to the time of the Mishna. Nothing new under the sun...