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mommyhood
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 Thu, Sep 15 2011, 4:15 pm
| MaBelleVie wrote: | | amother wrote: | | You cannot rav shop. If you don't like what your rav says, you cannot get a new one. |
If you think your rav is not understanding a medical situation, you are absolutely entitled to seek out a different rav, explain the situation as well as the original psak, and ask for a second opinion. Not to do so would be idiotic. |
I agree with you as long as you tell the 2nd Rav that you spoke to a different Rav first who gave you a different Rav. Shopping for the answer you want is a really big issur and by telling the 2nd Rav that you already spoke to someone you avoid that issue.
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pompom
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Thu, Sep 15 2011, 4:16 pm
considerering ur dr.'s advice talk to the dayin u use ( asking a dayin thats very informed with pregnancy issues- it also tepends at what point u r upto 2nd /3rd trimester
Last edited by pompom on Thu, Sep 15 2011, 4:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MaBelleVie
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Thu, Sep 15 2011, 4:17 pm
| mommyhood wrote: | | MaBelleVie wrote: | | amother wrote: | | You cannot rav shop. If you don't like what your rav says, you cannot get a new one. |
If you think your rav is not understanding a medical situation, you are absolutely entitled to seek out a different rav, explain the situation as well as the original psak, and ask for a second opinion. Not to do so would be idiotic. |
I agree with you as long as you tell the 2nd Rav that you spoke to a different Rav first who gave you a different Rav. Shopping for the answer you want is a really big issur and by telling the 2nd Rav that you already spoke to someone you avoid that issue. |
Yup, that's why I wrote the bolded 
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Ruchel
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Thu, Sep 15 2011, 4:19 pm
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An IV? To fast? This is so strange to me. I do not see any doc agreeing. IV is not for fun, who wants a hemorrage or infection or air bubble??
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Lady Bug
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Thu, Sep 15 2011, 4:33 pm
| Ruchel wrote: | | An IV? To fast? This is so strange to me. I do not see any doc agreeing. IV is not for fun, who wants a hemorrage or infection or air bubble?? |
In BP, there are IV stations all over town for people who are generally weak, but did not get a psak not to fast on Yom Kippur (which is not so simple like other fast days to get a heter to eat since its m'doreisa). If I am in the situation where I am very weak and fasting, I would definitely use it, if I can avoid eating on YK through that.
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MaBelleVie
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Thu, Sep 15 2011, 4:38 pm
| Lady Bug wrote: | | Ruchel wrote: | | An IV? To fast? This is so strange to me. I do not see any doc agreeing. IV is not for fun, who wants a hemorrage or infection or air bubble?? |
In BP, there are IV stations all over town for people who are generally weak, but did not get a psak not to fast on Yom Kippur (which is not so simple like other fast days to get a heter to eat since its m'doreisa). If I am in the situation where I am very weak and fasting, I would definitely use it, if I can avoid eating on YK through that. |
Which rabbanim endorse this? It sounds very iffy to me.
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mltjm
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Thu, Sep 15 2011, 7:24 pm
| amother wrote: | All pregnant women who think of fasting, should read this article
http://knol.google.com/k/-/-/2uwlycjywdbb9/44
| Quote: | | Fasting during pregnancy causes a rapid fall of blood sugar levels, much faster than in women who are not pregnant. When the blood sugar level drops, the only other source of energy available to the brain is ketones. Fasting increases body fat metabolism in the mother which produces ketones and releases toxins. Ketones and toxins adversely affect fetal development, can cause brain damage and mental retardation, and lower the IQ of the baby. |
| Quote: | The purpose of this article is to present sufficient information to show that fasting while pregnant or breast-feeding poses a serious risk to babies, a risk which is ספק פקוח נפש - potential threat to life or to healthy life. Fasting for more than 12 hours causes the body to produce ketones (a family of harmful chemicals which includes acetone) and releases toxins into the blood stream. Ketones and toxins can cause brain damage and mental retardation in babies. The primary objective of this article is to prevent exposure of babies to this risk.
Rabbis generally agree that people are obligated to guard themselves and their family against potential risk and potential bodily harm, even at the expense of violating the Shabbat or eating on Yom Kippur. The information presented in this article is not widely known and is intended predominantly for those who need to make Hallachic decisions which involve ספק פקוח נפש of babies. |
the author goes on to provide sources and more information. |
I am all for fasting if it is medically advisable AND cleared with YOUR rav, but this information is plain incorrect. Ketones take more than 24 hours to become present in the bloodstream. Anyone who had been on Atkins can tell you that.
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Peanut2
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Thu, Sep 15 2011, 8:15 pm
| amother wrote: | | You cannot rav shop. If you don't like what your rav says, you cannot get a new one. |
I must comment on this because I have actually heard an answer to this question.
One may not ask the same question to a different rav, hoping for a different answer.
One may ask a follow-up question to a new rav. One should describe the initial issue and the other rav's response.
And remember, rav shopping is always permissible when it's buy 1 get 1 free...
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simchat
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Thu, Sep 15 2011, 8:29 pm
For those who say `why ask a rav when the dr told you not to fast?`: when I was about 3 months pregnant, I started bleeding and went to the er after a few days. It was a thurs night and, if I remember correctly, yk was that sunday, so I didnt want to be stuck over shabbos and yk not knowing what was going on (I had called my doc and she said not to worry, but I wanted to make sure). Anyway, after getting checked out etc, one of the docs said `by the way, you shouldn`t fast on yk.` Ok, so my bil and dh both knew this doc and told me he was like the top doc in the hospital, or emergency dept or something and he`s jewish (though not frum), so he must know what he`s talking about!
Anyway, when dh asked our rav, he asked which doc said that and why and then said I have to fast. I think it was something to do with this particular doc who would tell all the frum preg ladies not to fast for no real reason (I think it was to do with him being anti frum, but not sure). Also, the fact was, my bleeding wasn`t anything serious at all and I actually fasted quite well b`H.
Oh, and before you say he`s not lenient/knowledgeable etc enough, he is very respected and in ALL other cases where we asked a shailah or for a heter, he was very lenient - in fact this same rav told me I don`t have to fast tisha b`av, when I was nursing and didn`t even give specific instructions (after chatsos, just drink, shiurim etc), he even said if the NIGHT OF tisha b`av, the beginning of the fast, I don`t feel well, I should eat! Just saying it doesn`t hurt to be sure!
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yb
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Thu, Sep 15 2011, 8:44 pm
| Ruchel wrote: | | An IV? To fast? This is so strange to me. I do not see any doc agreeing. IV is not for fun, who wants a hemorrage or infection or air bubble?? |
Do you seriously think that most IVs end in hemorrhage, infection and air bubbles???
(not commenting on the thread in general, but this comment is farfetched to say the least)
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Thu, Sep 15 2011, 9:10 pm
| amother wrote: | All pregnant women who think of fasting, should read this article
http://knol.google.com/k/-/-/2uwlycjywdbb9/44
| Quote: | | Fasting during pregnancy causes a rapid fall of blood sugar levels, much faster than in women who are not pregnant. When the blood sugar level drops, the only other source of energy available to the brain is ketones. Fasting increases body fat metabolism in the mother which produces ketones and releases toxins. Ketones and toxins adversely affect fetal development, can cause brain damage and mental retardation, and lower the IQ of the baby. |
| Quote: | The purpose of this article is to present sufficient information to show that fasting while pregnant or breast-feeding poses a serious risk to babies, a risk which is ספק פקוח נפש - potential threat to life or to healthy life. Fasting for more than 12 hours causes the body to produce ketones (a family of harmful chemicals which includes acetone) and releases toxins into the blood stream. Ketones and toxins can cause brain damage and mental retardation in babies. The primary objective of this article is to prevent exposure of babies to this risk.
Rabbis generally agree that people are obligated to guard themselves and their family against potential risk and potential bodily harm, even at the expense of violating the Shabbat or eating on Yom Kippur. The information presented in this article is not widely known and is intended predominantly for those who need to make Hallachic decisions which involve ספק פקוח נפש of babies. |
the author goes on to provide sources and more information. | A few years ago, I spoke to my midwife about fasting on Tisha B'av during pregnancy. She was not in favor of fasting, but she gave me good advice in terms of nutrition. We discussed ketones at length, and with her blessing, I fasted. There was no halachic reason not to, and by preparing myself beforehand with plenty of fluids for several days, complex carbohydrates and proteins the day of, there was no danger. The complex carbohydrates stay in one's body for longer, enabling it to be available to be converted for energy.
Fasting for one day does not generally result in too many ketones produced. There are signs that rabbonim will tell you to look out for, and the advice given is specific to your stage in pregnancy. I do not like the pompous tone of this article that says rabbonim who do not tell women to eat/drink in shiurim from the outset are doing so out of ignorance. In the majority of cases, there are no problems with a pregnant/nursing mother fasting. A competent rav will take the entire picture into account, and either give a heter l'chatchila or guidelines what to do on the fast day itself when certain conditions arise. I'd also venture to guess this author doesn't even think twice of differentiating between Israel and Chu"L. A blanket heter in Israel for drinking in the hot, dry weather would not be as necessary as elsewhere in the world.
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naomi2
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Thu, Sep 15 2011, 9:24 pm
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you need to ask your locol orthodox rabbi. this COULD be a case where YOUR health is at risk and so it is incumbent on you not to fast. if that is the case the rabbi will also tell you how not to fast. I don't think it's simply 'eat whatever you want' there might be restrictions on your drinking and eating because it is a very important fast from the torah. It is not broken lightly like many others. I cant imagine your husband for object to you consulting with a rabbi.
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jewels
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Thu, Sep 15 2011, 9:34 pm
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I'm going to be 34 weeks on YK as well, so I know how you feel. It's the 3rd YK that I'll be fasting while in my 8th or 9th and each time I go through the same round of asking the dr and Rav. Honestly a lot of drs will tel you not to fast, they want to be covered just in case something does happen. I would definitely ask a rav in this situation, it's not so simple and even a frum dr who knows halachos is no substitute for a competent Rav.
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amother
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Thu, Sep 15 2011, 10:00 pm
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It is important to differentiate between a doctor who tells *all* pregnant women not to fast, versus a doctor who doesn't object to most pregnant women fasting, but thinks that fasting would be a problem for your particular situation. Do you know which is the case here? If it's the latter, then check with your rav. (Otherwise, try to find another doctor to talk to if you're concerned about fasting.)
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Ruchel
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Thu, Sep 15 2011, 10:00 pm
| yb wrote: | | Ruchel wrote: | | An IV? To fast? This is so strange to me. I do not see any doc agreeing. IV is not for fun, who wants a hemorrage or infection or air bubble?? |
Do you seriously think that most IVs end in hemorrhage, infection and air bubbles???
(not commenting on the thread in general, but this comment is farfetched to say the least) |
Do you seriously think most drives without a seatbelt end in terrible accidents? Your comment is scary.
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amother
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Thu, Sep 15 2011, 11:38 pm
| mltjm wrote: | | amother wrote: | All pregnant women who think of fasting, should read this article
http://knol.google.com/k/-/-/2uwlycjywdbb9/44
| Quote: | | Fasting during pregnancy causes a rapid fall of blood sugar levels, much faster than in women who are not pregnant. When the blood sugar level drops, the only other source of energy available to the brain is ketones. Fasting increases body fat metabolism in the mother which produces ketones and releases toxins. Ketones and toxins adversely affect fetal development, can cause brain damage and mental retardation, and lower the IQ of the baby. |
| Quote: | The purpose of this article is to present sufficient information to show that fasting while pregnant or breast-feeding poses a serious risk to babies, a risk which is ספק פקוח נפש - potential threat to life or to healthy life. Fasting for more than 12 hours causes the body to produce ketones (a family of harmful chemicals which includes acetone) and releases toxins into the blood stream. Ketones and toxins can cause brain damage and mental retardation in babies. The primary objective of this article is to prevent exposure of babies to this risk.
Rabbis generally agree that people are obligated to guard themselves and their family against potential risk and potential bodily harm, even at the expense of violating the Shabbat or eating on Yom Kippur. The information presented in this article is not widely known and is intended predominantly for those who need to make Hallachic decisions which involve ספק פקוח נפש of babies. |
the author goes on to provide sources and more information. |
I am all for fasting if it is medically advisable AND cleared with YOUR rav, but this information is plain incorrect. Ketones take more than 24 hours to become present in the bloodstream. Anyone who had been on Atkins can tell you that. |
This is simply not true. 24 hours may be true for non-pregnant adults. In pregnant women, ketones show up after 12 hours of fasting. See reference 5 in the article.
"... plasma glucose and alanine was lower in the pregnant women than in the non-pregnant women after 12 hours of fasting while levels of free fatty acids and beta-hydroxybutyrate, a ketone, were significantly higher. This set of biochemical changes, also known as “accelerated starvation”, occurred after only “minor dietary deprivation” for both lean and obese women."
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Kayza
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Thu, Sep 15 2011, 11:50 pm
This has nothing to do with being Chareidi or not. If you consider yourself FRUM (not chareidi) you need to have a serious discussion with your Rov about this. Yom Kippur is the one fast that is de'oraisa, which makes it far stricter than any of the other fasts (even Tisha B'Av.) Eating on Yom Kippur is an issur koreis, unless there is pikuach nefesh. So, "playing it by ear" is a very bad idea.
Discuss this with a knowledgeable Rov, and have him speak to your doctor if necessary.
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Kayza
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Thu, Sep 15 2011, 11:55 pm
| shabbatiscoming wrote: | | ]Just curious, but if a doctor already told this woman not to fast, why would you or anyone else think that a rav would know better than the doctor? I dont get it. Why would anyone play around with their body when pregnant when told not to fast. I really dont get it when I hear these things. |
Because the doctor is not a posek, and eatong or drinking on Yom Kipur is an issur koreis (ie one the more "serious" infractions.) And, many doctors will strongly advise women not to fast based on criteria that are not halachikly acceptable - essentially, there is not a serious risk to the mother, but "it's not a good idea" or it can cause serious discomfort to the mother, or that's "standard practice." That is NOT how halachik decisions are made.
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Kayza
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Fri, Sep 16 2011, 12:01 am
| be good wrote: | I
in terms of having asked the doctor, dH needs to understand that its a shaila like any other. we need to ask the experts how fasting will affect us, and go to a rav with that info. its the responsible way to be oved HaShem.
! |
This is absolutely true. It's not possible to make halacik decisions without the relevant facts and that has to come from the doctor.
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Kayza
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Fri, Sep 16 2011, 12:04 am
| Lady Bug wrote: |
In BP, there are IV stations all over town for people who are generally weak, but did not get a psak not to fast on Yom Kippur (which is not so simple like other fast days to get a heter to eat since its m'doreisa). If I am in the situation where I am very weak and fasting, I would definitely use it, if I can avoid eating on YK through that. |
You need to ask a Rov about that. I've yet to hear that it is REQUIRED to use IV to avoid breaking the fast. And some hold that it is assur to do that (putting in an IV involves several issurim.) Of course, if you need an IV anyway, that's a whole different issue.
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