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mummy1985

Sun, Apr 21 2013, 3:18 am

chani8 wrote:

mummy1985 wrote:

chani8 wrote:

mummy1985 wrote:

chani8 wrote:

mummy1985 wrote:

This is really interesting because I've been really thinking about trying tallis and tefillin

I just told my DH that I want to do it just once. LOL

OP, apparently you're being an inspiration. Thumbs Up

so strange I didn't finish my post, I was typing on my mobile
Anyway it's really interesting as just today I was thinking about it because of WOW and thinking that according to halacha it's okay then when did we lose the mesorah? were women ever wearing tallis and tefillin? only Rashi's daughters? how come he didn't 'make' it into halacha? I would really like to try it at least once just to gain a deeper understanding of the mitzva, also do I need to be 'clean'?

Can you take challah when your nidda? Can you shake a lulav when nidda? Or rather, can a man put on tefillin when he is tamei??

oh I just thought they might be an issue because you can't touch a sefer torah when you are impure, I thought maybe they could be something similar when with tefillin
Good to know it's not an issue if I try it...

I wasn't answering, I was brainstorming with you. Can a man put on tefillin when he is tamei?

I just asked around and they didn't really know they just said they washed their hands before they put on tefillin and one said we are all tamei nowadays and it doesn't really matter...

mummy1985

Sun, Apr 21 2013, 3:24 am

bamamama wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

mummy1985 wrote:

chani8 wrote:

mummy1985 wrote:

chani8 wrote:

mummy1985 wrote:

This is really interesting because I've been really thinking about trying tallis and tefillin

I just told my DH that I want to do it just once. LOL

OP, apparently you're being an inspiration. Thumbs Up

Can you take challah when your nidda? Can you shake a lulav when nidda? Or rather, can a man put on tefillin when he is tamei??

Yes you can touch the Sefer Torah when you are in nidah. The Sefer Torah is not mekabel tumah.

^yeah that.

okay so it's not a thing? wonder why I was taught that...I remember one simchas torah at Bnei Akiva they gave us a sefer torah to dance with but then they took it away because we were women and we could be impure...

bamamama

Sun, Apr 21 2013, 3:28 am

From chabad.org

Quote:

Any impure person, even [a woman in] a niddah state or a gentile, may hold a Torah scroll and read it. The words of Torah do not contract ritual impurity. This applies when one's hands are not soiled or dirty with mud. [In the latter instance,] one should wash one's hands and then touch the scroll.

http://www.chabad.org/library/.....n.htm

mummy1985

Sun, Apr 21 2013, 3:40 am

bamamama wrote:

From chabad.org

Quote:

http://www.chabad.org/library/.....n.htm

Thanks! good to know guess I was misinformed... I guess they took the sefer torah away from us because it's not 'done'.. shame, it was lovely to hold it...

mo5

Sun, Apr 21 2013, 3:50 am

mummy1985 wrote:

chani8 wrote:

mummy1985 wrote:

chani8 wrote:

mummy1985 wrote:

This is really interesting because I've been really thinking about trying tallis and tefillin

I just told my DH that I want to do it just once. LOL

OP, apparently you're being an inspiration. Thumbs Up

Can you take challah when your nidda? Can you shake a lulav when nidda? Or rather, can a man put on tefillin when he is tamei??

FYI, Actually the issue of a guf naki is for men too, which is why today rarely does one see men wearing Tefillin a whole day (as was done more many many years ago) even those immersed in Torah learning all day don't wear it.
The difference is that they HAVE to wear Tefillin. It is a deoraisa, not just (possibly) an extra addition a woman might take on like she does for lulav or sukkah. So the obligation from Torah law overrides the concern p not having a guf naki--and it is hoped that for the time the refilling are on the man will manage.

chanchy123

Sun, Apr 21 2013, 5:38 am

OP - if you're still following:
Do you daven all 3 prayres a day with minyan (or without?)?
Do you have children? Do you have a job outside the home?
How do you fit this in your daily schedul?
Do you think other women should follow you?
Are you a feminist? Do you support egalitarian practice/worship - or do you believe that this is only a personal choice of yours?
Are you very learned? Do you learn at present? Have you learned for many years in the past?
Do you wear tzitzit daily?
Do you want your daughters to follow you?

I know these are a lot of questions, but it seems like this thread is mostly debate and not much info, so if you can discuss at least some of these questions it would be great.

amother

Sun, Apr 21 2013, 6:26 am

OP here.

Wow! So many comments! Sorry, I'm working so it will take me some time to respond to everyone. I will try to respond to everything, though.

A few responses to some questions I remember reading:

It was my then-fiance and now-husband who taught me how to put on tefillin, and yes, he's very supportive. His hanhaga, like mine, is fairly strict and others would describe him as "machmir", if that matters.

Because I was not yet married when I took on tallit and tefillin, I wasn't sure what to do about tzitzit. In the end, I decided to wear a begged katan before marriage and my husband gave me my tallit gadol in the yichud room. Smile

There was a time when I wore the begged katan under my clothes all of the time, but I'm sad to say that it's been a while since I've been able to wear it daily (I just put on my tallit to daven in the morning). Honestly, I don't feel comfortable going around with the tzitziyot out and if I keep the garment tucked under my clothes it makes me feel ugly. If it were possible, I would wear a very feminine garment on the outside (like a tunic-shaped thing over a skirt) with tzitziyot. For this reason, if I want to wear a shawl or something else with four corners, I fold in and sew or cut one corner off to avoid any issues.

Yes, I have learned seriously and full-time, and have plans, iy"h, to do so again in the future. I do try to learn on my own as well, and my husband and I have done some siyumim together! I currently work full-time outside of the home.

About minyanim: at the moment, I only go to shul on Shabbat and yamim tovim, and occasionally for a weekday mincha. As we're members of a regular Orthodox shul, I wouldn't be able to comfortably daven there for shacharit during the week in tefillin.

Chani8, you asked about not having found the right minyan. Honestly, I don't know what the right minyan for me would look like 100%. I have more learning and thinking to do on the subject. I just know that I want a place with the following combination of three things:

1. A place that is halachic and spiritual in terms of tefilla.
2. A place where I can comfortably daven with tallit and tefillin daily, and possibly participate in a halachic way (again, what that would look like honestly requires more study and thought)
3. A place where the kahal reflects #2, but is still very committed to piety and an attitude of "leshem shamayim"

I think women's prayer groups (minyanim?) might be a good option, but I'm not sure. It would be strange not to be able to daven with my whole family and would also make life-cycle events challenging if husband and wife have different shuls.

To those that have asked about the halachic status of this practice, after much study I believe that what I am doing is halachic and, in fact, I took it on after ascertaining this for myself and with the help and guidance of teachers and rabbis. A deeper explanation of why I chose to do it would take some time to formulate, but I'll think about it and try to get back to you with that. The main point is that I was very, very curious and felt an intense desire to try it, and once I did, I found that it increased my focus and my feeling of kedusha and also my commitment to prayer 3x day, and so I took it on.

amother

Sun, Apr 21 2013, 6:29 am

OP again.

As for feminism: if your definition of feminism is "the radical notion that women are people", then yes, I'm a feminist.

amother

Sun, Apr 21 2013, 7:27 am

I am not OP but I too wear tallit and tefillin. I once lived in a community with a "partnership minyan" in which women who chose to wore tallit (only met on Shabbat). It was my dream community -- non-judgmental, welcoming and accepting. I started when my brother (who went OTD) left his tefillin & tallit at home and I decided to try out of curiosity. I love it. I wrap myself in tallit and feel enveloped by Hashem. I wrap tefillin on my arm and feel connected and reminded of why I am here on Earth. I touch the box on my head and feel Hashem reaching into my neshama. I daven at home, I have a job and children and my husband completely supports me. Women like us are out there and are proud! Women of the Wall have the right idea -- no one should define how Jews should daven at the Kotel. It is for all Jews -- don't bother me and I will not bother you.

amother

Sun, Apr 21 2013, 7:32 am

Very interesting.

I wanted to know- the halacha of guf naki when wearing tefillin- does having your period count as not having a guf naki? Like would you be required to wear a tampon when having your period, so you wouldnt be "dirty" on the outside of your body with menstrual blood? Or would you be required to not wear the tefilin when you had your period?
Do you know of any halachic sources on the topic of guf naki and periods? I'd love to learn more.

Cookies n Cream

Sun, Apr 21 2013, 7:38 am

HindaRochel wrote:

mummy1985 wrote:

chani8 wrote:

mummy1985 wrote:

chani8 wrote:

mummy1985 wrote:

This is really interesting because I've been really thinking about trying tallis and tefillin

I just told my DH that I want to do it just once. LOL

OP, apparently you're being an inspiration. Thumbs Up

Can you take challah when your nidda? Can you shake a lulav when nidda? Or rather, can a man put on tefillin when he is tamei??

Yes you can touch the Sefer Torah when you are in nidah. The Sefer Torah is not mekabel tumah.

Some(or maybe all) communities hold that a woman that is niddah should not look into the Sefer Torah so there definitely is this concept.
Also, I know that some are Makpid that only post menopausal women work in the Matzah bakery, because there is a Tumah if they're Niddah. (I don't know if this is a universal concept, but I've heard it from Chasidim and Bucharians.)

mo5

Sun, Apr 21 2013, 7:56 am

amother wrote:

I don't know but have discussed this previously (though for me it is entirely theoretical... I have many mitzvot maasiyot to do first Smile

and the assumption is that a period would preclude the status of a guf naki- don't know about sources because women putting on Tefillin is not an assumed activity discussed in hilchos Tefillin .

chanchy123

Sun, Apr 21 2013, 8:00 am

amother wrote:

OP again.

As for feminism: if your definition of feminism is "the radical notion that women are people", then yes, I'm a feminist.

I'd like to clarify, does your religious practice stem from a feminist or spiritual place (or a combination)? Do you feel that this is your way to change society, or something personal?

Also, I'm wondering what country you live in (but that might be too revealing for you).

tzfatisha

Sun, Apr 21 2013, 8:00 am

according to the Aish Kodesh (who taught in the warsaw ghetto so can hardly be seen to be a new agey feminist) people who take on mitzvas that they are not obligated to do (ie women) get more 'mitzvah points' (so to speak) than people (ie men) who are doing something because they are obligated...
because if u do something that you are commanded to the credit goes to hashem while if you do something because you decide to take it on the credit goes to you
(btw I hope I've explained this properly)

I'm sure there are plenty of women here who've taken on the commitment to doven three times a day.. even tho women are not obligated to doven in a formal way at all.. but I am sure that none of them/you feel that you are doing more than is required..? (or do you?)
so how is taking on tallit and tefilin different?

chani8

Sun, Apr 21 2013, 8:05 am

amother wrote:

I doubt we can Ask The Rabbi this one (bolded). Rolling Laughter

Last edited by chani8 on Sun, Apr 21 2013, 8:05 am; edited 1 time in total

chanchy123

Sun, Apr 21 2013, 8:05 am

tzfatisha wrote:

according to the Aish Kodesh people who take on mitzvas that they are not obligated to do (ie women) get more 'mitzvah points' (so to speak) than people (ie men) who are doing something because they are obligated...

How is this reconciled with גדול המצווה ועושה משאינו מצווה ועושה?

chani8

Sun, Apr 21 2013, 8:07 am

chanchy123 wrote:

tzfatisha wrote:

How is this reconciled with גדול המצווה ועושה משאינו מצווה ועושה?

Right. Totally not what I learned. I leanred, if you are obligated, then the schar is higher.

PinkFridge

Sun, Apr 21 2013, 8:40 am

sequoia wrote:

This is "ask me anything," not "yell at me indiscriminately."

Admittedly I still have 3.5 pages to go but I hear a lot of honest and polite curiousity so far.

mummy1985

Sun, Apr 21 2013, 8:42 am

tzfatisha wrote:

Erm Hashem is Perfect, He does not need credit.. Wink

PinkFridge

Sun, Apr 21 2013, 8:50 am

So I got though all pages.
Maybe some of the "offensive" ones were deleted, and everyone took umbrage (21 likes? Really?) before the deletions. I'm not sure who were the more defensive ones.
That poorly written one about holiness may just be trying to say, we have so much to do first. Do you really feel you're there?
My question is, do you have kids yet? Do you see being able to continue this? Let me explain where I'm coming from. Not just chareidiville. That's too facile. Yes, I'm chareidi, but I have a lot of sympathy and understanding for women who feel like square pegs. I have a great deal of respect for your doing this halachically and IMO without agenda. You're not trying to make any points and don't want to offend anyone. Personally, I have no cheshek to "try this just once". I don't think I'm going to feel something transcendent and "now I know what I'm missing." Seeing from my family, growing up and my bnei mitzvah, this is a serious, mature commitment.
If this offended anyone, please don't hesitate to chime in and clear the air.

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