Pro Vaxxers - How are we retaliating?

amother

Tue, May 06 2014, 9:41 am

vintagebknyc wrote:

studies show that no matter how much evidence the anti-vaxxer is shown, she/he does not waver. in fact, gets more adamant about anti-vax beliefs.

I fear it's going to take a polio outbreak and a whole lot of children getting sick to make people see the truth--and from my posts on the other thread, that's on its way. terribly sad.

Sadly, you're getting your wish.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/05/.....olio/

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, May 06 2014, 10:54 am

Dolly Welsh wrote:

Having had the measles does confer immunity, but it has very probably worn off by your sixties. Measles is indeed around now.

Yes, the rarity of the diseases was protecting the worn-off people!

You say: "There never was a time that we had middle aged people with worn off immunity who were "safe" because of vaccinated children "

but of COURSE there was. And there still is. Right now.

These diseases are not common yet. AND THAT'S WHY. Because most kids are vaccinated, B"H.

Going into a crowd and getting something, a cold or who knows, is one thing. These diseases are not just one more thing you can get. They torment for weeks or months. They are big deals. They are serious and dread diseases. Sometimes they kill.

And yes they are back because of the anti-vaxxers.

Yes the mechanisms of shedding and transmission are complicated but that's still the basic truth about this situation.

A huge concern is availability of the boosters.

It's not like buying a quart of milk. There may be limited availability.

Oldsters die anyway because it's their time, but it's annoying to have the date advanced because of some crunch nut somewhere.

I believe you are incorrect.

What wears off is the immunity conferred by vaccines, not natural immunity from diseases itself. When people got the measles as a child, they never got it as an adult, even when it was rampant pre-vaccine era.

We are now getting to the point where adults are losing immunity possibly and that is why they keep on adding boosters for various diseases into the vaccine schedule. It never had to be done in the past, because natural immunity existed for all those who had contracted specific viruses as children (measles, chicken pox, mumps -- admittedly, there are different strains and it's not just worn off immunity that's the issue.)

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, May 06 2014, 10:56 am

amother wrote:

Mil is a nurse and the other day in her clinic she saw a very very sick little girl. They sent her to the hospital. later that day mil got sent home from work because the sick little girl had the measles. She was too young to have gotten her second round of the immunization and she had just come back from India where she contracted measles.

Mil was sent home until it could be confirmed that she had had the measles before. She was told to stay away from my children, one of whom is too young to have had all the rounds of shots yet.

When they confirmed that mil had in fact had the measles, it was declared that she could go back to work because she is immune. She is 60, so I guess having had them means she is still immune at 60.

such a sad story for the little girl. They are pro vaxxers who were doing what they could to help their little girl and because she was too young she got sick.

People are so selfish...

Huh? She got measles from going to India -- what does this have to do with "selfish" people?

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, May 06 2014, 10:59 am

3mitzvos wrote:

There actually was a polio outbreak here in Israel not so long ago... very sad... and yes, it is because ppl chose not to vaccinate.

I recommend you read into this some more. They detected polio in the sewage and because of that started a mass OPV vaccination, but not a single person was infected. That is not an outbreak. I would not be quick to assume it had to do with people deciding not to vaccinate.

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, May 06 2014, 11:07 am

sequoia wrote:

Wow.

You so just missed the point.

Guess WHY we don't have to vax for them anymore?

I thought you would be a little more current and wish some other horrible nasty disease that it's "their fault" for not vaccinating for...

In regards to tuberculosis, though, that has never been on the schedule in the US. Ever. It's not regarded as being highly effective, and for a while, they were relying on testing for the disease instead of pre-empting it through vaccination here. Other countries were different, but I really think it has little to do with a pro vs anti vax stance here in America for you to assign credit and blame.

sequoia

Tue, May 06 2014, 11:26 am

I'm from the former Soviet Union so I was vaxed for TB.

Smallpox vax was de rigeur for everyone until it was eradicated in 1979. People only a few years older than me have the scar from the smallpox vax on their arm. WHY was it eradicated? WHY does NO ONE have to vax for it anymore? Why is it no longer a current danger? Because EVERYONE vaxed for it.

Chana Miriam S

Tue, May 06 2014, 11:50 am

chani8 wrote:

Why in the world are those who get vaccinated concerned about others who are not vaccinated. YOUR KIDS ARE SAFE. Right??

ETA- my kids are vaccinated but I know better than to consider them safe, because vaccinations do fail.

as a person whose children are vaccinated, here is a list of the people I am concerned about:

My childhood rav who is undergoing chemotherapy. Gawd only knows how immune he is to anything with chemo killing all his immunity.

My friends babies and toddlers who are too young to have had the full round

My adult friends who for various reasons (1 an auto immune disorder and 1 ms) either cannot be revaccinated, or for whom vaccination does not work right from the outset.

My general take on vaccines is that if they are given and someone gets the disease, then it in theory should be less severe than someone who is not vaxed.

PLUS there is a certain amount of 'what can you do?' when for example, people who have had chicken pox are theoretically not 100% immune and also people who have had chicken pox are more likely to get shingles, for which there is a vaccine, and it is usually given to people above 60. Getting chicken pox itself makes getting shingles much more likely. not sure if the chicken pox vaccine helps or hurts that.

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, May 06 2014, 11:55 am

sequoia wrote:

According to the CDC, no other disease seems to be able to be eradicated. They tried with polio -- and failed (third world countries, not some anti-vax movement in developed countries).

The things people are vaccinating for these days scientists are not trying to eradicate. It's apples and oranges.

Hashem_Yaazor

Tue, May 06 2014, 11:57 am

andrea levy wrote:

The chicken pox vaccine is a live virus vaccine. The immunity level post-vaccination vs the immunity-level post-disease years down the line is worse for those vaccinated. It's close to 100% for those who got chicken pox after having a fully developed immune system.
Since it is a live virus vaccine, the virus does lay dormant in the body and as such, both those who were vaccinated and those who got the disease are susceptible to shingles.

black sheep

Tue, May 06 2014, 12:04 pm

chani8 wrote:

no vaccination is 100 percent effective (until after many years the disease is eradicated.) also, not all of our children are able to be vaccinated. non-vaxers are slowly eradicating herd immunity. that's the worry.

GreenEyes26

Tue, May 06 2014, 12:21 pm

Blah blah blah. Like I said before, no one listens to reason. If they DID listen to reason, they would vax. So it's kind of a no-win argument.

This whole non-vaxing thing really makes me see red. There are some things that I just CANNOT "live and let live" about: non-vaxing is one of them. Another one is "jewish" cults like Lev Tahor. Or women wearing burkahs. Or women sitting on the back of the bus.

At some point, YOU JUST GOTTA STOP.

black sheep

Tue, May 06 2014, 12:39 pm

GreenEyes26 wrote:

agree, especially the bolded. (and lately, Jewish Racism seems to be on my list as well.)

ElTam

Tue, May 06 2014, 1:31 pm

Quote:

Why in the world are those who get vaccinated concerned about others who are not vaccinated. YOUR KIDS ARE SAFE. Right??

Chani8, Yes, my kids are safe. So I don't have to worry about them. But you know what, here's how people not vaxxing affected me. I have a child with a severe egg allergy. Normally, that child should not get the MMR vaccine, because egg is used in the manufacture. However, we had several cases of mumps (among unvaxxed kids) in my community and the number of non-vaxxing parents is on the rise in our circle. So, in consultation with our pediatrician and our allergist, both of whom I trust implicitly, we decided to go ahead and vax the child for MMR, because we could manage that risk better than we could manage the risk of him getting exposed to the disease.

In addition to worrying about fever and swelling, I had to worry about my kid going into anaphylactic shock. That means we had to have him vaxxed with a crash cart in the room and an emergency medical team. B"H, he didn't react. We were, however, stuck with a bill for the extra staff and for the medicine they had to ready in case he did go into shock, because it couldn't be reused. That was several hundred dollars out of pocket because it isn't something our insurance would cover, since most kids who get the MMR don't need it.

So if you think a decision to vax isn't affecting others, you couldn't be more wrong. And, as multiple people have pointed out, unvaxxed kids endanger kids who are too young to be vaccinated. Take some time to watch videos by mothers whose kids died from pertussis before they were old enough to be vaxxed. Maybe you could live with the fact that your decision killed someone else's kid. I couldn't.

ora_43

Tue, May 06 2014, 2:13 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

They tried with polio -- and failed (third world countries, not some anti-vax movement in developed countries).

Some third world countries have their own anti-vax movements (and they are way scarier than those in developed countries. In Nigeria there have been shootings). Not coincidentally, there's a lot of overlap between those countries and the ones that still have problems with polio.

Of course things like war can play a part, too (I doubt many toddlers in Syria are up to date on their vaccines), but anti-vaccine ideology is one of the big factors.

amother

Tue, May 06 2014, 2:30 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

I am old. My vaccines were in childhood. Is their effectiveness zero by now? Should I be scared to get measles or whooping cough? They are around now, and I have not had boosters.

What do you think?

Do you think there is going to be a mowing down of the oldsters from non-vaxxing? Especially ones with reduced immunity, and that's plenty of them?

It may not only be the children.

Your thoughts?

I'm only answering bc this is a direct question! This whole thing seems to have spiraled out of control since I saw these threads yesterday and is scaring me!

Sadly, yes, the older population is at a big risk, not just the infants.

Unfortunately, what we see is that immunity wains with increasing age. There are some ways around this like increasing the vaccine dosage. But, it is limited and not the best option. The best thing to do is as a person ages to get their antibody levels checked every few years and get boosters. There are things we know need boosting every 10 years and that is DTaP.

But, unfortunately, yes, there is not too much to say or very many reassurances. The older population is at higher risk. The majority of cases in vaccinated people are young children with still immature systems, the older population with waining immunity and immunocomprimised people

UQT

Tue, May 06 2014, 7:57 pm

I also find this type of anti-vaccination hype unfair to our hardworking doctors. My friends husband is a doctor and he said since this magazine hit town he's been spending hours just explaining to patients the benefits of vaccines. If you are finding it hard to schedule an appointment these days by the dr. you can thank the anti-vaccine camp for forcing young mothers to use up the doctors precious time.

MaBelleVie

Tue, May 06 2014, 8:01 pm

Dolly, if I were you I would have titers checked to see whether or not you are immune to whatever concerns you. In the case that you're not immune and you feel there is reason to be concerned, see whether you're a candidate for boosters. If you're not, you'll know to lie low in case there's an outbreak of that disease in your area, or in the case that you're traveling to a location that experiences that disease more frequently.