should I bring my baby?

PinkandYellow

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 5:10 pm

Quote:

I think it is insensitive of people to compare 1 or 2 or even 3 years of waiting to someone who waited 9 years or this older woman that is waiting possibly even more than that. I'm not minimizing the pain you must have gone through

you are definitely minimizing other ppl's pain.
at the point that I was 2 yrs of trying and not preg I didn't know it would only be another 6 mths. for all I knew it could be another 7 or forever. obviously 2 yrs of trying is not the same as 9 yrs of treatments, but please don't minimize my pain.
and this older woman also got married late in life. I didn't mention it bec I didn't think it was important, but you brought it up. so while her biological clock is ticking, I'm not sure that she is even married more then maybe 2-3 years.

Mama Bear

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 5:20 pm

Okay. I took a deep breath and thought it through rationally. I want to apologize for all my strong verbiage today. I'm a bit of a hormonal basketcase because I'm on some hormonal drugs now as we're planning to embark on trying for another baby soon. but anyway, after thinking it through rationally, Moshe dovid's mom, I'm going to backpedal on my very strong words, because I started to think more of YOUR side of the coin and not this woman's.

IF, IF, IF the organizer of the shiur said IT WAS OKAY TO BRING BABIES, then by definition, this event is considered, for all intents and purposes, a BABY FRIENDLY VENUE.

Thus, the onus now lies on that other woman, that if she is uncomfortable attending a place with small babies, that she shouldnt come. This is, after all, not a place that is supposed to be baby-free. She is putting herslef in the position to be hurt if she continues attending. It's not your problem to assure that this is a baby free zone if it wasnt designated as one. You are not PURPOSELY hurting her by bringing your baby, sinc ethe shiur organizer allows it.

Feel free to continue bringing your baby.

HOWEVER! ON the flip side, I only flew off my handle because of the collective attitude on this thread that kep minimizing the tzarah taht this woman is going through. The MENSCHLICH thing to do, in all honesty, would be to leave yoru baby home. If I was you - I would feel really bad that I was causing another person pain by bringing my baby with me. This is the HUMAN side of the situation. But, since you don't seem to see it this way, and since you wouldnt come to the shiur otherwise and really need to come to the shir, my bottom line conclusion is:

You are technically doing nothing wrong by bringing your baby with you. It's not a baby-free zone, and this woman knows it. However, you should know every time you bring your baby, that it bothers someone, and this should help you make your decision.

I'm sorry for flying off th ehandle before. I'm having a hormonal basketcase day today. SOrry all.

sruth1

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 5:22 pm

I do not know of those who posted how many have suffered through infertility but my guess would be that some of you have not. Please be careful what you say, remember that embarrising someone and hurting them is the worst avairah. Why should this women who has to miss out on so many functions because she has no children, and who suffers everyday when going to the grocery store or even just going out by seeing children and pregnent women have to miss out on yet another activity because the pain is to great to sit watching a mother holding a child.
OP I commend you for being sensitive anough to this woman's plight to ask for people opinions.
For those of you who feel that the woman is being unfair and should either not come or should just grin and bear it. Please remember the last time you wanted something and could not have it, think of the pain that it caused you multiple that pain by a hundred and hopefuly next time you will be more sensitive to other people feelings.
I also have a question for the moterators. Is the infertility forum a locked forum. If it is not maybe it should be because there are sensitive issues that are discussed and I think one who has not experiances IF would understand.
Thank you

amother

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 5:24 pm

I also went to an informal shiur on a weekly basis for a while

there is a woman there with only one older child that she concieved after getting a brocha from the L.Rebbe, but has no more, and there is me who has been through secondary IF for a few years.

there are a few mothers who sometimes bring children and the host herself has her baby and sometimes her toddler around.

I don't mind the kids. I don't know about the other woman but she doesn't seem to mind either.

its true though that sometimes the cute kiddies compete with the woman giving the shiur and I can't avoid looking into their bright eyes and getting distracted, but...hey its an informal shiur and if those women couldn't bring their kids, then I don't know if they would get that time to learn, so I for one do not have a problem with them bringing their kids.

amother

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 5:39 pm

Quote:

I am posting anon. because not everyone is aware of my IF (seconday) problems.

After thinking about both sides (and don't worry Mama Bear, I understand those hormonal moments all to well). I think that MDM should be able to bring her baby, since it can be quite difficult to leave a nursing baby at home (if the baby wasn't nursing, or was older than 5 or 6 months they shouldn't be brought to a shiur if it might be disruptive). Women with nursing babies also need opportunities to learn.

However, I wonder if that is really the woman's only difficulty. For example, I go to a shiur where a few people bring small babies, which I'm okay with (even at hormonal moments), but it really gets to me when people spend the entire social time after the shiur talking about babies, nursing, pregnancy, and which diaper brand is on sale. It makes those of us without small babies (even though mine is still a toddler) feel left out and wonder if we fit into the community at all.

So, perhaps she would be okay with you bringing the baby if you make a point of befriending her. So maybe try leving her at home for a couple of weeks (if logistically reasonable), make a point of being friendly towards her, then try bringing the baby again (perhaps ask her first, although I know if it were me I would be embarassed to be asked)[/code]

mimsy7420

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 5:52 pm

Since I nurse full time I don't get out much and I would tend to stay home from shiurim and stuff but if there was a shiur that I knew was specifically baby friendly I would totally go with a newborn. It's up to the host whether babies should come or not. I think a mother would be sensitive enough to walk out of the room when their baby starts to cry.
I feel bad for the women who was offended but should pregnant women also be banned?
The issue here isn't even that babies can be distracting when everyone needs to sit quietly and listen. It's an issue of our world being baby-centric. And that's not something thats going to change.
There is a time to be sensitive though, at class reunions I don't think babies should be allowed to come and other such places where it can be avoided there should be every effort to do so. If someone has to stay home I would rather it be the nursing mother then the wife dealing with infertility.
There is a time and a place...

amother

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 6:01 pm

Quote:

I would respectfully repeat, that please don't judge until, iy"H you have a nursing baby of your own.

You make it sound like a nursing mother is a tzara which the person has no control over. Nursing is optional! yes, I know its the best thing, but still a woman has to decide on her priorities. If she feels its sooo important for her to go out for her weekly shiur, then she should train her baby to take a bottle occassionally. If she is insistant on exclusive nursing then she has to know that she'll have to give up on certain things.

Now about OPs situation, I really dont know what the right thing is, but to make it sound like she is nebuch a nursing mother who is locked in the house, and we shouldn't judge her until we are in her shoes, I mean, come on!

amother

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 6:08 pm

amother who has been through secondary IF for a few years.

look, I agree there is room for sensitivity but if it boils down to who stays home? the woman going through IF or the pregnant ladies, I don't think its fair to expect the pregnant ladies to hide from everyone because of fear of offending.

yes I feel bad for those ladies that couldn't handle the pain of seeing pregnant women or women with kids, but are people expecting that the pregnant mothers or mothers with kids have to stay home instead of them?

ok so if she is hurting enough that someone has to stay at home because of it, then why should it be the others?

who decided that pregnant chani should stay home instead of infertile rochi?

I think the need to be sensitive extends to - being carefull not to discuss the details of your pregnancy or your kids milestones with a women going through IF. I think sensitivity means, not to keep checking her tummy to see if she is pregnant, not to say stupid insensitive comments, not to flaunt your brochos, and by flaunting I mean yapping on and on about your gorgeous kids.
I think it also means not to kvetch too much about being pregnant in front of someone who is trying or hasn't had kids in a while

but I DON'T think sensitivity extends to changing your lifestyle and having to davka go out of your way to hide your brocha, unless you are a big believer in ayin hora, which I'm not.

I'll never forget when I was pregnant with my first and told my father and his reaction was concern for my brother and sil's reaction (who had been married quite a few years without kids.)
I was so upset that he said that to me. why did he have to put a damper on my happiness? why did he have to make me feel guilty for my brocha?

Please don't think I'm being insensitive.
I've had a small taste of it myself as I mentioned
I took on myself when I say tehillim everyday to say tehillim for a woman who even hates me but I know she has issues with IF and I daven for her.
I really feel for women who go through it. I feel for them so much I cry sometimes from it. I think in a previous life I went through something because it affects me so much, or maybe its just the secondary IF, but I really do feel for the topic.
that said, I'm against expecting others to stop going out or miss out on shiurim.

(of course if its specifically a shiur at night thats not intended to include kids then it wouldn't be appropriate. In addition if the kid cries and disturbs I'd expect the mother to take her out)

amother

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 7:01 pm

amother wrote:

I'll never forget when I was pregnant with my first and told my father and his reaction was concern for my brother and sil's reaction (who had been married quite a few years without kids.)
I was so upset that he said that to me. why did he have to put a damper on my happiness? why did he have to make me feel guilty for my brocha?

I think it's wonderful of your father to have been concerned about their reaction. Your brother and SIL were facing the possibility of never having children, which is one of the most painful feelings in the world. It's all-consuming and agonizing, and it hurts to hear that others are pregnant. So your father expressed concern, because he is a good father. I doubt very much he actually made you feel guilty. If you felt guilty about anything, it's probably about how little concern you had for your brother and SIL, as demonstrated by your post.

amother

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 7:08 pm

amother wrote:

my father didn't have to express his concern to ME at the moment in which I'm breaking the wonderfull news to him.
his words were "Oh dear, I'm worried how _______is going to take the news that you are pregnant"
you really think that's fair to say to a woman pregnant for the first time and in the process of telling her parents? I expected him to join in my happiness, not express dismay.

no I didn't feel guilty for lack of concern, thats a ridiculous assumption to make. I was being made to feel bad that I was pregnant and that hurt.

and just by the way, my brother and sil were are kvatters when we had our son and shortly after they had their own first child and then another through intervention.

BeershevaBubby

Thu, Nov 08 2007, 11:38 pm

As someone who has IF issues and lives in Israel, let me reply.

Yeah. There were PLENTY of times I didn't... no, make that couldn't leave my house because the thought of seeing one more mother with baby or pregnant belly would send me into fits of crying.

Did you ever think that maybe the reason this woman isn't a regular is because she can't handle seeing the babies at an 'adult' event?

I get it. All of us going through IF get it. The world doesn't stop because we can't or have difficulty having kids and most couples never have that hardship.

So we cut out the situations where we'll be inundated by seeing babies like sitting in the park on a Shabbat afternoon schmoozing with other adults and we try to put ourselves in situations where we're least likely to have our IF issues smack us upside the head.

Like an evening shiur.

Only to have to deal with women who can't leave their kids at home for an hour and half of adult time because they choose to make it into a 3 hour schmoozefest.