WO! Now I really believe in R' Nachman - Uman- Rosh Hashana!

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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Rosh Hashana-Yom Kippur

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amother

Mon, Sep 10 2007, 5:51 pm

Quote:

Hashem also gave your mother a brocha I assume to get married and she got divorced.
Hashem gives people life and takes it as well.

Exactly!!!!!! You've proved my point exactly. It was HASHEM who declared that the woman in OP's story would conceive and bear a child. Not R' Nachman!!!!!

Lechatchila Ariber

Mon, Sep 10 2007, 6:07 pm

of course hashem blessed her, that does NOT disprove the fact that going to R'Nachmans kever helped.
Confused

greentiger

Mon, Sep 10 2007, 6:11 pm

This argument is so strange. It can be applied to going to any tzadik's kever to daven, or going to any tzadik for a brachah... I'm honestly confused, have frum women really got issues with these things?

Ruchel

Mon, Sep 10 2007, 6:12 pm

we will never know how much something is helped by a kever or by auto persuasion. Personally I have seen pretty troubling things, so I believe it helps.

TzenaRena

Mon, Sep 10 2007, 6:34 pm

Quote:

Exactly!!!!!! You've proved my point exactly. It was HASHEM who declared that the woman in OP's story would conceive and bear a child. Not R' Nachman!!!!!

I'm pretty surprised at the skepticism toward belief in tzaddikim, and the power of their brochos, the source for it is in Torah itself.

We are approaching Rosh Hashana when we recite the haftarah about Chana, mother of shmuel HaNavi. She too, was blessed by the tzaddik, Shofet, and leader of the generation, Eli HaKohen.

And who blessed the Isha haShunamis to have a child ? The Novi - Elisha - who is referred to as Ish Elokim.

Now was it Hashem or Elisha? It should be obvious that a tzaddik bypasses all obstacles or judgements and brings down Hashem's brochos.

Lechatchila Ariber

Mon, Sep 10 2007, 10:44 pm

I think the poster or posters are having an issue with the concept because they think that believing in a brocha from a Rebbe, contradicts believing in hashem which is completely ridiculous.

TzenaRena wrote:

It should be obvious that a tzaddik bypasses all obstacles or judgements and brings down Hashem's brochos.

Exactly.

the arguments presented make it sound as if Moshe Rabeinu had no part to play in taking Bnei yisroel out of the desert or in all the other miracles of the desert.
how about the water from the rock. Obviously it came from Hashem, but did Hashem not command Moshe to speak to the rock?

amother

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 3:24 am

EstiS wrote:

I think the poster or posters are having an issue with the concept because they think that believing in a brocha from a Rebbe, contradicts believing in hashem which is completely ridiculous.

TzenaRena wrote:

It should be obvious that a tzaddik bypasses all obstacles or judgements and brings down Hashem's brochos.

It is not that people don't believe in a brocha from a tzaddik. Its just that when said tzaddik is not alive, it is hard to comprehend such things as going to their gravesite or the house they lived in when they were alive and praying to said tzaddik, then attributing the nes to them and not to Hashem (or Hashem gets passing credit for it).

e1234

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 6:52 am

well it says that tzaddikim even in their death are considered alive....

If you believe in the tzaddik and he (Rebbe Nachman) said that anyone who comes to his kever he will intercede on their behalf then that itself is reason to go....

Lechatchila Ariber

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 8:20 am

Quote:

why can't we attribute a brocha to them?

First of all as far as brochos from Tzadikim even after their histalkus is concerned, there is countless incidents dating from way back when that for me to start collecting incidents as proof for you that the concept exists, is like trying to prove that the sky is blue and the grass is green.

now trying to say that believing in brochos from tzadikim after going to their kevorim is denying Hashem's part in it all is just plain silly.

Why do you think we have tzadikim? According to your rational we don't need them at all and having tzadikim is a denial of Hashem.

Perhaps you'd like to say that the concept of a Tzadik is avoida zora?

Quote:

well it says that tzaddikim even in their death are considered alive....

which is why you will hear me and others refering to the passing of a Tzadik with the term "histalkus" rather then death.

Quote:

If you believe in the tzaddik and he (Rebbe Nachman) said that anyone who comes to his kever he will intercede on their behalf then that itself is reason to go....

and amother, Rebbe Nachman said it while he was with us begashmius as far as I'm understanding from this discussion.

hadasa

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 8:28 am

Rachel mevakah al baneha - Rachel Imeinu was buried far from Chevron, so that Bnei Yisrael could pray at her Kever and she would intercede for them!

amother

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 8:37 am

Quote:

We are approaching Rosh Hashana when we recite the haftarah about Chana, mother of shmuel HaNavi. She too, was blessed by the tzaddik, Shofet, and leader of the generation, Eli HaKohen.

The Navi states, "Vatitpallel Al Hashem Uvacho Tivke" And she prayed TO HASHEM, and she cried, and later "Vizkereiha Hashem", and HASHEM remembered her. Eli came upon her, and offerred her a blessing, she did not seek him. We learn so much from Channa's prayer, that to this day, we daven under our breath, as she did.

Quote:

the arguments presented make it sound as if Moshe Rabeinu had no part to play in taking Bnei yisroel out of the desert or in all the other miracles of the desert.

I don't have a Hagada in front of me this minute, but in it we say "Ani Velo Malach....Ani Velo Shaliach.....Ani Hashem......Ani Hu Velo Acher". Hashem very specifically wants us to know that the Makkos, and Yetzias Mitzrayim came from HIM ALONE and no-one else.

gryp

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 12:51 pm

What's the point in bringing a quote to prove that one should daven to Hashem or Hashem is in charge, as if anyone would think differently?

If you want to disprove k'vayachol the fact that Tzaddikim can bring down brachos to us, then find a passuk that says that. But there ain't such thing.

The fact is that Eli gave Chana a bracha and it was fulfilled.

gryp

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 12:57 pm

Quote:

(or Hashem gets passing credit for it).

It's not passing credit. It's obvious credit.

Motek

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 6:33 pm

amother wrote:

I bet that line preceding the shira that is said daily really disturbs you:

"And they believed in Hashem and in Moshe His servant." Oh my!

Lechatchila Ariber

Tue, Sep 11 2007, 6:38 pm

hadasa wrote:

Rachel mevakah al baneha - Rachel Imeinu was buried far from Chevron, so that Bnei Yisrael could pray at her Kever and she would intercede for them!

need we say anymore?

Motek

Sun, Sep 16 2007, 4:04 pm

amother wrote:

check out the Rashi in Haazinu 32:48 which quotes the Medrash:

The children of Israel said, “We swear by such and such, that if we notice Moses [ascending the mountain to die], we will not let him do so! The man who brought us out of Egypt, divided the Red Sea for us, brought the manna down for us, made flocks of quails fly over to us, brought up the well for us, and gave us the Torah-we will not let him!” Thereupon, the Holy One, Blessed is He, said: “I will have Moses ascend the mountain [to his resting place] in the middle of the day!” - [Sifrei 32:47]

shocking eh ...

Lechatchila Ariber

Sun, Sep 16 2007, 7:48 pm

Quote:

shocking eh ...

incredibly....how dare rashi suggest that it was Moshe did all those thins and not Hashem shock

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