how to approach teacher, dd ate not chalav yisroel

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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Preschoolers

How to approach teacher, dd ate not chalav yisroel

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GetReal

Fri, Dec 18 2009, 7:32 am

I think this is the next paragraph of the quote.

In a mature tree, a gash here or a torn branch there is of little or no consequence. But the smallest scratch in the seed, the slightest nick in the sapling, results in an irrevocable deformity-in a flaw which the decades to come will deepen rather than erase.

Hence the great care and vigilance required in the education of the young. The values imparted to the child must be impeccable, free of even the slightest and most "forgivable" blemish.

Ruchel

Fri, Dec 18 2009, 7:35 am

It's probably a machlokes like there are many. I personally had never heard of it.

Quote:

The Kalover Rebbe has his particular Iinyan with the Holocaust and Yarchei Kallah.

Can you explain?

GetReal

Fri, Dec 18 2009, 7:39 am

If I am wrong and there are other sources from the Rebbe, someone please post them. But from my understanding, there is no way that we can say "this is hashkafa" and "this is halacha l'ma'asah." How can hashkafah contradict halacha l'ma'aisa? The quote about the tree is talking about chinuch, and how important it is to child's character. It is not saying that we should therefore be more strict on halacha for a child than an adult.

gryp

Fri, Dec 18 2009, 9:27 am

Quote:

But from my understanding, there is no way that we can say "this is hashkafa" and "this is halacha l'ma'asah." How can hashkafah contradict halacha l'ma'aisa? The quote about the tree is talking about chinuch, and how important it is to child's character. It is not saying that we should therefore be more strict on halacha for a child than an adult.

I agree with that.
That is why when I call a Rav for halacha l'maisah, the Rav will answer me taking our hashkafos into the matter as well. The answer isn't straight out of a book.
An easy example of that is when I called to ask the Rav about husbands out of the delivery room- if the Rebbe said during delivery or throughout the entire labor. It is a question of both halacha and hashkafa, as the Rebbe spoke about it as a halacha. (The answer I got, btw, was only during delivery.)
Other examples would include: hair covering, birth control, ultrasounds (pregnancy), keeping one day YT in EY, and a lot more.

Imaonwheels

Sat, Dec 19 2009, 11:53 am

Ruchel wrote:

It's probably a machlokes like there are many. I personally had never heard of it.

Quote:

The Kalover Rebbe has his particular Iinyan with the Holocaust and Yarchei Kallah.

Can you explain?

The Kalover Rebbe suffered during the Holocaust and has made a very big thing of remembering. His Yarche Kallah's are one day all day learning and he often ties the 2 together. These 2 things are what he js known for emphasizing.

Ruchel

Sat, Dec 19 2009, 2:11 pm

Imaonwheels wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

It's probably a machlokes like there are many. I personally had never heard of it.

Quote:

The Kalover Rebbe has his particular Iinyan with the Holocaust and Yarchei Kallah.

Can you explain?

Thanks. Interesting.

shalhevet

Sat, Dec 19 2009, 2:13 pm

Imaonwheels wrote:

I B"H have all Shabbos to see if I can find the proper footnote. The Rebbe4's sichos are well annotated.

That said this post is insulting. No gadol sits and makes things up in his head and spews them out. A few days ago when you quoted from your LOR a reason and made a psak based on the reason that differs from what most of the residents of EY hold and you were insulted that I asked for a source. That even though the inyan is in an area of Torah thatal pi shitato he is in not a mumcheh in - Kabbala and chassidut. I just wanted to know on what broad shoulders he was relying on to contradict the Ariza"l.

I answered you on the other thread, and yet you continue to be mezalzel in kavod haTorah. It was not a psak at all - he told us that we had no reason to do a minhag that was not our family or community minhag. He doesn't have to bring any source for his reasoning. Oh, naturally your knowledge of kabbala is much greater than his, great to know - you have real chutzpa saying that without knowing anything about him. Go and check out (you can pm me for his name if you don't remember) and you will find out how he "is not a mumcheh in kabbala and chassidut".

Quote:

The Lubavitcher Rebbe, a recognized gadol says something the best us little minds can sayt is "tzarich Iyun" as Rav Wosner did when speaking of the Mishna Brura's heter to go without stockings. Are we better?

It seems you think you are. I explained that in that case I simply brought his opinion to the OP that there are differing opinions, not that any one is the only one.

Quote:

There are many inyanim that a particular gadol stressed. Only the Chofetz Chaim stressed LH to the point that a generation later his followers would be over the general clallim of tochecha and halbanat panim b'rabim and ignore his other particular sefarim (ike Geder Olam on tznius, Machaneh Israel on the Jewish soldier, his treatise on not shaving the beard).

Well, since you have been mezalzel about kavod haTorah, now I guess you have a heter to be motzi shem ra on a section of klal Yisroel. Maybe you should keep to your mumchiut of kabbala and chassidus (I guess you are a mumchit on hilchos LH, ahavas Yisroel, judging favourably, what psak everyone else follows and a few other mumchiot).

Quote:

To me that post was an attempt at delegitimization. What is "no Jewish hashkafa" if not an attempt to portray Lubavitch as no Jewish hashkafa and deviant. I have no problem with you holding that opinion if you have researched Lubavitch teachings thoroughly and are enough of a talmida chachama to know. I recommend starting with R' Yochanan Gurarieh's books explaining in minute detail the sources and reasoning of minhagei Chabad.

Actually I was just interested, though I understand with my previous posting history and the lack of tone in the wrritten word I can be dan lechaf zechus that you read it as an attack. I have no problem with any minhagim/ hashkafa as long as they don't contradict halacha. I was just interested if this was a more widely held hashkafa than just concerning Chabad.

You can stop your recommended reading of Chabad minhagim, since, not being such a talmida chachama, I rely on our rabbonim and I wouldn't start deciding which minhagim to follow or not based on what I'd read anyway. I don't have enough time to read up our own halachos/ hashkafos/ minhagim.

Quote:

I do not yet know kol haTorah kulo so I am not really qualified to make hard and fast kvios that someone is relying on NO source and making something up.

Good to know.

Quote:

BTW I did not put a lot of thought into all of the ramifications of my example (erev Shabbos here). I also would probably give the best to my weaker child and save the less ideal or not kosher for when the kosher runs out.

But the theoretical example is supposed to be when you have to choose yourself or your child to get the mehadrin/ CY/ whatever.

chocolate moose

Sat, Dec 19 2009, 9:51 pm

GR wrote:

Btw, op, if my child wasn't being watched by the teachers as much as she needed to be, and the child couldn't watch herself, and I was really concerned about an issue, I'd simply tell my child that she's staying home from now on. As the adult, I can't keep putting her back into a harmful situation when A) teachers can not solve the problem for you and B) child is too young to be in charge.

If OP's child needs to attend that school, the child needs to be told he or she can only eat food from home. IMO, end of story.

sped

Sun, Dec 20 2009, 11:56 am

AS a pre-school teacher, I think it is unrealistic to expect any teacher to ALWAYS see what is going on with all the children. In fact, it is pretty impossible. Things happen. You need to really train your child to eat NOTHING from ANYBODY in school, except, perhaps, direct from the morah's hands. It's never too late to teach her that.

poelmamosh

Sun, Dec 20 2009, 9:21 pm

I had a 3 yr old over to play with my daughter whose mother told me, "no wheat or dairy". The little girl refused a rice cake as a snack ("My mommy says I need to have corn thins"). Well, turns out she IS sensitive to rice, though not as badly as the others, so the mom doesn't want to make everyone crazy...but little kids CAN be taught what they can & can't eat.

As to the side discussion -- I said this already but think it serves saying again, as per shalhevet and chassidish amother's recent posts:

Chabad is very careful regarding non-chalav yisroel foodstuffs, for adults and children of all ages. We are concerned should anyone consume these things, as we have learned that imbibing them can cause sfeikos in emunah. Someone(s) on this thread seemed to imply that OP was silly for worrying so much about such a young child, so some posters responded in her defense that according to our hashkafa, she has good reason to worry about her dd's diet! We have also clearly stated that this is not a halachic issue. So, what is the argument about?

gryp

Sun, Dec 20 2009, 9:26 pm

It's about who should eat the non-CY when stranded on a desert island- the adult or the child?

shalhevet

Mon, Dec 21 2009, 2:39 am

poelmamosh wrote:

As to the side discussion -- I said this already but think it serves saying again, as per shalhevet and chassidish amother's recent posts:

Chabad is very careful regarding non-chalav yisroel foodstuffs, for adults and children of all ages. We are concerned should anyone consume these things, as we have learned that imbibing them can cause sfeikos in emunah. Someone(s) on this thread seemed to imply that OP was silly for worrying so much about such a young child, so some posters responded in her defense that according to our hashkafa, she has good reason to worry about her dd's diet! We have also clearly stated that this is not a halachic issue. So, what is the argument about?

I'll explain it again (GR gets it Very Happy

).

Many Litvish parents are very careful regarding what their children eat from the day they are born too. The point I didn't get was being MORE careful with a child than with an adult. We would be more likely to be meikel for a child (eg if there was medical need) than for an adult, because that is halacha as I understand it. And if there are no special circumstances to keep the same standards.

BTW, I didn't get an answer on the nanny thread - is there anyone out there who is scrupulously careful with what their child eats but would leave them under the care of a non-Jewish nanny?

amother

Mon, Dec 21 2009, 5:46 am

poelmamosh wrote:

poelmamosh, I am "chassidish amother." I think GR pretty much explained where I stand (and I think Shalhevet stands) in our questioning of posters on this thread:

GR wrote:

It's about who should eat the non-CY when stranded on a desert island- the adult or the child?

The argument, is about Halacha. Because when someone says "their hashkafah is such and such," but that "hashkafah" clearly contradicts what the Shulchan Aruch (or other Halachic source) tells us, well, then either that someone is very misinformed, or, that someone (WADR to you- this doesnt apply to this example or to this situation necessarily- I am just being very general here) is practicing a different "form of judaism" namely Reform or Concervative Judaism where indeed, when there are Halacha vs Hashkafah conflicts, what one feels is "the right thing" often contradicts what really "is" the right thing.

Of course I am careful about what my children eat. But from a Torah hashkafah, Halacha is very clear. what goes into my mouth is more important halachically than what goes into my childrens mouths, period. Just like, my Husband's davening with a minyan matters. mine doesnt. does that mean my tefillos are less precious to hashem? or my childrens mitzvos are less precious? I am not here to debate Hashem's system of weight and measures. I am also not here to debate what halacha tells us. But the fact is, Halacha is VERY clear about childrens' requirements and adults' requirements in the case of Kashrus. If you regard CY as Halacha (which I think you do), then your breaking a halacha so that your young (below bar mitzvah age ) child does not have to break halacha, has a special term in halacha also -it is called being a "chossid shoteh."

Ruchel

Mon, Dec 21 2009, 6:00 am

I think many people would describe themselves as scrupulously careful but you wouldn't agree because it's all relative.

So I'll take the highest examples I can think of.

My bobover great grandparents had non Jewish maids who took care of the kids.

My great great grandfather was a gadol ha dor (chosen to become chief rabbi of Israel but war got in the way) and also had non Jewish help at home.

Atali

Mon, Dec 21 2009, 8:35 am

amother wrote:

poelmamosh wrote:

poelmamosh, I am "chassidish amother." I think GR pretty much explained where I stand (and I think Shalhevet stands) in our questioning of posters on this thread:

GR wrote:

It's about who should eat the non-CY when stranded on a desert island- the adult or the child?

I think that there is a misunderstanding here.

While non-kosher food is more spiritually damaging to a child, that does not mean that there is a more severe issur to give it to them. It isn't. It is more severe to give it to an adult and the two do not contradict each other.

For example, in a different sicha the Rebbe discusss Elisha ben Avuya (Acher). It says somewhere (I don't remember the source off the top of my head) that the reason why Acher went off the derech was because his mother passed by food that was offered to avodah zarah (which then becomes not kosher) when she was pregnant with him and had an intense craving for it and ate it, which had a negative effect on her baby (Acher) and caused him to go off the derech later.

The Rebbe discusses why this was the case. Al pi halacha if a pregnant woman has an intense craving for a non-kosher food to the extent that it could endanger her if she not eat it (which seemed to be the case here), then you should give it to her.

The answer is that although her action was entirely muttar, the non-kosher food still had a negative effect on the fetus regardless.

Atali

Mon, Dec 21 2009, 8:40 am

shalhevet wrote:

poelmamosh wrote:

I'll explain it again (GR gets it Very Happy

No, I would not leave them under the care of a non-Jewish or non-frum nanny.

If I lived in an area where there was no frum care available and I had to work I would consider sending a child to a non-Jewish daycare center since it is under strict government regulation and they would have reason to believe that I could (and would) sue them if they violated my instructions, but even that I would only consider in a case of necessity, not because it was "more professional" or something.

greenfire

Mon, Dec 21 2009, 9:23 am

disclaimer cause I'm NOT reading 4 pages - that also go off on tangents ...

to the OP - a child of any age can be taught not to share food ... when in doubt do NOT eat it and bring it to mommy - mommy then will tell you if you can eat it or exchange it for something that you can eat ...

it's a win win situation ...

you cannot put the burden on the teacher or the principal - ultimately chinuch starts at home ...

gryp

Mon, Dec 21 2009, 9:25 am

I think Atali gave a good parallel explanation.

But I think I will ask on this one to make sure my understanding of it is correct.

ETA: I would hope to never have to hire a babysitter I can't trust. I used to know a non-Jewish (African-American, actually) lady who would babysit for relatives. We were all very close to her. She did everything from negel vaaser, brochos, some yiddish language, and more. That said, I think this type is the exception rather than the rule, and we mustn't confuse the two.

risa

Mon, Dec 21 2009, 9:48 am

I think most of you have missed the point. The OP is upset at the school's/principal's response to the situation. Like most of us, when we feel we have been wronged, all we really want is for the other party to admit that whatever happened should not have happened. And some sort of apology is usually in place. Like when you buy something and it's bad quality, you can't return it but you want the store to admit to something. My advice to the OP: This is not really about whether a 5year old should know better. Anyone who thinks that your child should not have taken the snack needs a reality check. How many times have you eaten a piece of cake/cookie or anything else when you told yourself so many times that you wouldn't. So that whole arguement is completely invalid. But let's face it: You spoke to the teacher and the principal, admittedly, at the wrong time. If you want some closure on this situation, you call the teacher and/or principal during their designated office hours and discuss what happened. You need to tell the prinicpal what you THOUGHT she would say, why you're upset and what can we do in the future to prevent this happening again. YOu need to approach this as a partner with the school, not as an angry parent. I would even say to go in for a personal meeting and let her know, in advance, what the meeting will be about. Make it clear to all involved that you are disappointed in their reaction to the event and that you expected the school to work with you, not make you or your child into the bad guys. best of luck.

poelmamosh

Mon, Dec 21 2009, 10:39 am

shalhevet wrote:

The point I didn't get was being MORE careful with a child than with an adult. We would be more likely to be meikel for a child (eg if there was medical need) than for an adult, because that is halacha as I understand it. And if there are no special circumstances to keep the same standards.

(Atali answered, but here goes)
We are not MORE careful with a child, just the same extent as with an adult. We wouldn't be maikil for a child, since there are special circumstances to keep the same standards.

The desert island example: halachically, in such a situation, anyone may eat the non-CY food at the point where there is nothing else. But I know of stories of chassidim (and there were perhaps other frum Jews) who refused such food to the point of mesiras nefesh.

And I would prefer not to leave my child with any type of "nanny". Sorry, though, I didn't read that thread.

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