Vent and Request-- Good Frum Writers!

life'sgreat

Wed, Jan 27 2010, 9:05 pm

happyone wrote:

Hashem loves me wrote:

The genre that I can't stand is short "true" stories. (People Speak, and A.M. Amitz) Am I the only one who does not believe for a second that they are true (at least some of them)?

I totally thing most are made up, as are the letters to the editor in the Binah and Mishpacha. They pick and choose and make up their own. I know several people who have written letters to the editor commenting on articles, and if they had a negative comment, never made it to print.

That's life.

Amitz has true stories. Not all of them I think, but there are definitely true stories.

I don't know why you'd say that about Binah and Mishpacha. My own letters have been in Binah more than once. And not all of it was positive. They have thousands to choose from, so the fact that those people's weren't chosen tells you nada.

ILOVELIFE

Wed, Jan 27 2010, 9:08 pm

happyone wrote:

Hashem loves me wrote:

The genre that I can't stand is short "true" stories. (People Speak, and A.M. Amitz) Am I the only one who does not believe for a second that they are true (at least some of them)?

People Speak is def made up and he says so himself

AM Amitz has some true (I know one person whose story was written up so I guess some are true) but many I think are not. She/he def seems to have an agenda.

Ahem-- about the letters-- that's so NOT true. Most magazines are flooded with letters and see no need to make 'em up.... About negative letters-- some get printed and some do not-- a lot depends if there's any point in printing it. Also, some letters get responded to privately by the writers/editors as they can explain much more detail that way

sarahd

Thu, Jan 28 2010, 12:33 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

louche wrote:

Herman Wouk stands out as a Jewishly observant man who was a superb novelist. But he wrote books with jewish themes, not "Jewish books," if you understand the difference.

Which brings up the possibility that success in the form of good writing comes from concentrating on being a good writer. Happening to be a frum person and writing on Jewish themes is secondary, simply because you're writing what you know. This, as opposed to being a self-conscious "frum writer," meaning your primary concern is the frumkeit, and the writing just happens to be the vehicle for your preaching.

Shouldn't it be the latter?

Not if you want to get read - and have people who would otherwise read secular literature get interested in Jewish literature.

Quote:

What mitzvah is there in stam being a "ggod writer"?

Who was talking about mitzvos?

louche

Thu, Jan 28 2010, 1:06 pm

Raisin wrote:

How about Tova Mirvis? I don't know if she qualifies as a frum writer, but I think she is frum, and her books are about frum people.

I don't think she qualifies, as she writes for general audiences, not for frum people, whom she will offend. Her books are entertaining but I resent people who write for a secular audience and portray Jews in a negative way. It's one thing for us to laugh at ourselves and another for us to hold ourselves up to ridicule on the part of the world at large.

Isramom8

Thu, Jan 28 2010, 1:13 pm

Are mitzvos so sideline to our lives that you had to be already specifically talking about them? shock

True, good writing can interest more people in frum writing. But that should be the writer's goal. (I mean authentic frum writing, that in in keeping with reality and naturally leads a person to more ahavas Hashem and so on.)

I wrote a biographical story that is going to be included in a secular anthology. I did not hide the fact that I am shomeres mitzvos. My hashkafos are clear. I hope it is inspiring (I assume that many Jews read such books, and/or non jews who read it will form a good impression).

louche

Thu, Jan 28 2010, 1:31 pm

Isramom8 wrote:

louche wrote:

Shouldn't it be the latter? What mitzvah is there in stam being a "ggod writer"?

WHat mitzvah is there in being stam a good artist or stam a good dressmaker? What mitzvah is there to being well-dressed or having a well-decorated home?

If I just want to satisfy the requirements of modesty and protection from the elements, I can cut a hole in the center of an army blanket, throw it over my head and pin up the sides. However, it's doubtful that I will be able to sell this look to too many people, as most people would prefer something with a little more style. If I just want to preach to an illiterate audience, I can write any old which way and my audience won't know the difference. But if I want to be respected by and influence a wider circle including people who are more literate and sophisticated, then I'd better be able to write on a higher level.

My point is that I suspect that the people who are good writers have taken the time to perfect their craft, whether or not they intended at the outset to write religious literature. One gets the sense that the bad frum writers have not bothered to perfect their craft, either because they don't consider it worth their while, or because they don't know any better.

Which would you rather listen to at a simcha: a musician who practices hours every week till he gets the music down perfectly--not because it's a mitzvah to play perfectly, but because he takes pride in and respects his craft--or some guy who happens to have had a few violin lessons, can scratch out a tune, and figures this will be a good way to earn a few extra bucks?

ceo

Thu, Jan 28 2010, 1:36 pm

I find that a lot of the characters in frum books are very stereotyped. Like, the stereotypical BJJ graduate, the stereotypical guy learning in Lakewood, the stereotypical mother in law from Flatbush, etc.... Also, the characters are usually very flat and not particularly developed.

Personally, I've found books written in Hebrew and translated into English to be much better. The conflicts are usually more realistic, the characters are better developed and seem more "real." Often, the "struggle" of the book is not anything earth-shattering (like hunting down a Nazi), but more a person working on themselves to be more forgiving, less judgemental, more accepting, etc..... This is more realistic.

I've liked the books written by Chava Rosenberg, Rachel Schorr, Sarah Kisner, in particular. Also, I really liked "Tightrope"- I forget the author, but its about a girl and how she doesn't get along with her mother in law. It's definetly more realistic than a book like "Just Between Friends" . That book is cute, but not so realistic....all 4 close friends are struggling with a different issue- one has marital problems, one is an overwhelmed kollel wife, one is an older single, one has fertility issues...... and at the end, all there problems are solved...... mazel tov.... one person decides to be nicer to her husband, the single girl gets engaged, the overwhelmed wifes reduces her hours at work and the other one has a baby.... c'mon...

louche

Thu, Jan 28 2010, 1:42 pm

Or, to put it another way:

The good frum writer develops a skill and uses it to address frum people, whether to inform or entertain or teach. The bad frum writer never develops the skill, which IMO shows a lack of respect for both the craft itself and for the audience. A grammatical error in a book is like a stain on a lecturer's garment. It is a disservice to tha audience and reflects poorly on the writer.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jan 28 2010, 3:00 pm

sarahd wrote:

Isramom8 wrote:

louche wrote:

Shouldn't it be the latter?

Not if you want to get read - and have people who would otherwise read secular literature get interested in Jewish literature.

Quote:

What mitzvah is there in stam being a "ggod writer"?

Sarahd, I just wanna read a good book! I love reading, I enjoy the experience of reading without being aware of the author's literary machinations (a secular example is Tamar Myers, who can spin a good plot but is not a satisfying read). I guess I'm not on the madrega that every action has to be a mitzvah... unless it's the mitzvah of unwinding to be able to get back on the hamster wheel again. But then I suppose there is a school of thought that says that such unwinding should still be edifying, or of Jewish content exclusively.

Who was talking about mitzvos?

Isramom8

Thu, Jan 28 2010, 5:35 pm

I hear the part about responsibility when using a skill professionally. But skill is subjective. When I write, I'm just expressing myself. I'm not obsessively bogged down by proving my "skill". A magazine or publisher wants to print my poem or letter or story or article? Fine. Sometimes they do. Don't want it? Okay.

I'm just talking to other Jews, as myself. I try to do a decent job. But I'm not caught up in my essense being a "writer". As a person created by Hashem to do Hashem's will, one thing I do is write to express sublime emotions, to educate, to share experiences that may help others, to clarify my thoughts and share that clarification to help others feel better, etc.

Guess that's why I'm not one of the big names, nu nu.

WriterMom

Thu, Jan 28 2010, 5:40 pm

louche wrote:

Raisin wrote:

How about Tova Mirvis? I don't know if she qualifies as a frum writer, but I think she is frum, and her books are about frum people.

I hear you, but I don't think of it as negatively as that. Or rather, I think that's inevitable when someone writes about an ethnicity that's not "normative." I'm thinking particularly of the Irish lit (McCourt, Doyle, etc), books by Indian diaspora writers (Naipaul), AfAm writers (Angelou), and even of subcultures that aren't ethnic, like addiction recovery novels. Anything authentic will show both the good and bad of its subject, and IMO it's an important skill, to be able to write about an issue in one, fairly narrow, community in a way that seems accessible and interesting to someone not of that group.

So while I see the things in Mirvis that make it look as if she's mocking (some) frum Jews, it bugs me less than, say, Anita Diamant, who suggested in The Red Tent that Yakov Avinu had an unnatural relationship with sheep. No, I'm not kidding.

sarahd

Thu, Jan 28 2010, 6:01 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

sarahd wrote:

Isramom8 wrote:

louche wrote:

Shouldn't it be the latter?

Not if you want to get read - and have people who would otherwise read secular literature get interested in Jewish literature.

Quote:

What mitzvah is there in stam being a "ggod writer"?

If you reread my post, you will see that I agree with you. Your quotes got a little messed up there.

Raisin

Thu, Jan 28 2010, 6:16 pm

WriterMom wrote:

louche wrote:

Raisin wrote:

How about Tova Mirvis? I don't know if she qualifies as a frum writer, but I think she is frum, and her books are about frum people.

I read the red tent and got some really bad feelings from it. really horrible. But Tova Mirvis's books, sure they showed up some bad things but there were plenty of good things in it. I didn't get the impression that she was anti religious, or anti chareidi (like ragen obviously is) but just wants to write things as they are. BTW, plenty of frum books mock or show up certain aspects of frum life. Hearts of gold is very much mocking a certain type of lifestyle.

WriterMom

Thu, Jan 28 2010, 6:24 pm

Raisin wrote:

I must confess, I've read very little "frum" lit. I shall try Hearts of Gold.

Has anyone here read Rochelle Krich? She's a frum writer, who writes mysteries, usually involving the frum world. I'm curious to hear what others think of her work.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jan 28 2010, 8:33 pm

sarahd wrote:

PinkFridge wrote:

sarahd wrote:

Isramom8 wrote:

louche wrote:

Shouldn't it be the latter?

Not if you want to get read - and have people who would otherwise read secular literature get interested in Jewish literature.

Quote:

What mitzvah is there in stam being a "ggod writer"?

If you reread my post, you will see that I agree with you. Your quotes got a little messed up there.

My bad. Never mind ;-)

PinkFridge

Thu, Jan 28 2010, 8:37 pm

WriterMom wrote:

Raisin wrote:

I must confess, I've read very little "frum" lit. I shall try Hearts of Gold.]

(Pinkfridge for the next 3 lines)
Don't.
Or have industrial strength Tums nearby.
And there is a sequel, if you find yourself interested.

(Writer Mom again)
[Has anyone here read Rochelle Krich? She's a frum writer, who writes mysteries, usually involving the frum world. I'm curious to hear what others think of her work.

(PFridge)
Yes. And I know she's been busy professionally, heading Sisters in Crime or something, and I think busy with family too but it's been over 4 years since her last book. We're waiting!
Her books are fine, positive, she really has an "in" and knows the frum world (sometimes Faye Kellerman seems not to have a handle but she's a very likeable person though) . For people who like mysteries, she's not bad at all.

Isramom8

Fri, Jan 29 2010, 12:26 am

The Red Tent portrays a developing society, an unformed religion, and an evolving world. If you choose to view Torah through that lens, Diament did an excellent, poetic writing job.

From a traditional frum perspective, much is very disrespectful. It's speculative - we don't usually speculate about events and practices not explicitly stated about our avos and imahos. She is Reconstructionist or Reform.

OTOH, Rochelle Krich is actually an Orthodox mother. I knew one of her sons, a fine yeshiva bochur, he would come to us for Shabbos.Never read her books, though!

Once again, let's keep in mind that any of these women could be an Imamother. Or someone could forward her a link to this discussion.